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Chinese people - treacherous? (I just wanted to ask...)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by doc
    ...
    To someone who can't read too well you may seem like a racist pig, but if i catch it right all you're actually saying is that people put in certain kinds of situations long enough will react in a certain way?

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    • #17
      I grew up in a New York City of years ago, and, during those times, racism was rampant. However, I spent my late teenage years devoting my weekends in an inner city hospital Emergency Room in Bedford Stuyvesant, as a volunteer paramedic. Instead of dating, I was helping in one of the absolute worst neighborhoods (at the time) in New York. It was the start to a kind of long and kind of illustrious medical career. I haven't changed much over the years, in fact, I've become even more tolerant in my older age. So, calling me racist, would be a stretch.

      However, calling me a "stereotyper", which isn't a word, would be more appropriate. For even though people don't like the concepts of stereotypes, unfortunately, I feel that, to some degree, they exist. I don't find it to be a genetic thing (however, some academicians have tried to associate certain behavior patterns to genetics and species). I think it to be more of a learned behavior thing; people learn from their surroundings and other people, as they grow up. And, they learn from their environment. Grow up in an environment such as China of years ago, and you're going to develop certain types of behavior patterns that you need to survive.

      All I said, in the very beginning of this, is that I feel that a great deal of the Chinese live by different rules when it comes to business dealings. I find this also now in Thailand; talk to most experienced foreigners in Thailand who do business there, and you'll find simiilar commentary. Asia is by no means the west; in this thread http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2978 , which I recommend you visit as I personally think that it is relevant to this discussion, someone made the comment "You cannot apply your cultural standard to them". Very relevant. They live and act the way that they do because of where they are. The problem starts, when they come here to the west, and do not adjust their behavior to our culture.
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

      (more comments in my User Profile)
      russbo.com


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      • #18
        hummmm

        Here is a little smth that diserves to be read but is not an answer or particularly relevant.
        Attached Files
        The East? The West?

        Men and Women, that's all...

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        • #19
          I'm really diggin that avatar, Flow.
          Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by zachsan
            Just remember, people who make broad generalizations about other people are all assholes.
            Could you explain why this is? Is it a law of the Universe?

            Or just your personal opinion?

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            • #21
              Happeh, in a way Zachsan is right; people that go through life making prejudgements about others based upon their ethnicity or religion tend to make errors. But, as I've said before, being cautious based upon generalizations and stereotypes, yet giving people a chance, may not be a bad idea.

              What's your opinion of the initial basis of this thread? Just curious, it seems that you're from China.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #22
                Could you explain why this is? Is it a law of the Universe?

                Or just your personal opinion?
                It was a joke.

                And, of course, a law of the Universe.

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                • #23
                  You shouldn't "generalize" about peoople ! People are all different, everyone know that. Stereotypes do exist because of the tendencies of a majority of a paticullar ethnic group, or simply just group of people. But thats only the majority. The minute you generalize you include that Minority ! That why you could come off as a Ass for generalizing. You give the impression that you feel that EVEYONE in that group lives up to that stereotype. That you don't accept there being certain people who are infact different from the rest.
                  "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                  • #24
                    Back to the original question, "Chinese people - treacherous" ???
                    I think Doc. hit it the nail right on the head, bring money into the situation and, yes, they are treacherous ! Leave money out and they can be some of the warmest people on the face of this earth, willing to go out of their way to help you out.

                    For example... I teach English here in Shandong. My boss is a great guy ! Two days ago I wanted to send a package home to my pops for Christmas. All he had to do was tell me how to get to the post office, but instead he insisted on taking me there during his lunch break (when all but a few Chinese take a nap). And that wasn't enough ! He wouldn't let me send it 'cause he thought I would be paying too much. He made some phone calls and found out that DHL would be cheaper. So I gave him the money and he took care of it from there.

                    OK, now the flipside ! He put me through all sh** just to get a small raise. The school is totally f***ing me on my salary. It's my own fault for not looking into what I should, and could get paid before signing my contract. So when I asked for a raise he gave me all sort of sh** on why his boss couldn't do that and how, if I stayed for another year, then I could get what I desirved to be paid ! He even told me that, "yes, the school is trying to save money at your expense". All this only to OK a raise when I threatened to go to the Vice Pres. of the school, my Tai Ji teacher.

                    So, Yes !!! When it comes to money the Chinese are treatcherous. I don't have a doubt that this is a result of Maoism and the Cultural Rev. as everything you see in mainland China, from people forcing their way to the front of what should be a line (there is no such thing as a "line" in any place the Chinese can get away with not being forced into one ie: the bank, a ticket window, the counter at a restaurant) to people not bathing regularly, is a result of the customs carried on by people who were alive durring that era... I'm a Chinese Studies major, I can site examples for anyone interested. In fact, I doubt that China will every truly change and rise up to the standards of any other superpower until the older generations of people from the Mao days are dead and gone, and their customs have gone with them.

                    Not to be mean, these people went through hardships we could never identify with and I have great respect for them. It's just some of the sh** I see here everyday is ridiculous and most of it is can be traced back to these people, and the way they raised there children.

                    Just don't bring money into the situation and all should go well.
                    Last edited by baiwanxi; 12-15-2006, 04:34 AM.
                    "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                    • #25
                      I don't have a doubt that this is a result of Maoism and the Cultural Rev. as everything you see in mainland China, from people forcing their way to the front of what should be a line....to people not bathing regularly, is a result of the customs carried on by people who were alive during that era... I'm a Chinese Studies major, I can site examples for anyone interested.
                      You can site examples that specifically link the practice of acquiring wealth for Chinese to Maoism and the Cultural revolution? And "not bathing," as well?

                      Well, I suppose a case could be made for the effects of economic reform and how the switch from planned economy to a more market-oriented one instilled a sense of individualism in people that now propels them to be more opportunistic, but it's hard for me to completely understand the connection with the Maoist era and the CR. Perhaps if you say because "people were denied the most basic rights, and they stood up to get what they they felt they deserved and to make a life for themselves... and it didn't stop there. " The problem is Chinese have always always been subordinate to authority. The people of China have traditionally been held to the bondage of the state; with very little difference between the Imperial Court system of government, the intervening military dictatorships, and the first decades of the Communist government. It's only recently that things are different.

                      When one tries to do business or cultivate meaningful relationships with Chinese people, it's not the same, and not because of race or because they are "treacherous," but rather because of cultural and historical elements that have conditioned them over time to conceal their true motives and intentions as a means of survival. In my eyes Chinese have developed tendencies which allow them to seem passive, and even "saintly," in order to improve their lives, maintain identity, and bring "face" to both themselves and their families...while all along not attracting too much attention.

                      I don't think it's an issue of money, though it's presence can help to boil the pot. I think Chinese are purposefully allusionary and their behavior is often inscrutable because of the desire to maintain a proper face and seek ways to benefit from others. individualism may inadvertantely change this, but it's been a classic component of chinese culture for a long long time. to be mutually dependent on one another and find ways to get ahead are old customs and habits. now to us they may apprear confusing because we can't imagine how people do the things they do without letting us understant their motives. they look happy, say nice things..etc..etc..etc.. but in reality, most foreigners just don't know how to read the Chinese "face" yet. They are often overwhelmed with generosity and flattery, as many Chinese go to more trouble than they should and spend more than they should on guests, while treating them, helping them to do simple everyday chores, and so on..

                      But the hospitality the Chinese traditionally extend to guests like yourself may not be motivated by anything other than a sense of and need for face, so to look capable, not too poor or selfish to help, etc. Or, in order to promote "China" by not creating negative impressions, like a "bad" Chinese, for instance. it's important to uphold a positive reputation and make a good impression. Actually, Chinese typically express only a kind of "neutrality," to not show emotion, that is, unless smiling. Be happy! yao kaixin o! I mean try getting mad in a public place and see how quickly you become "alien."

                      Chinese use flattery and are helpful in order to persuade others and maintain a harmonious atmosphere in society. there are cases, though rare lol!, when a person's intentions are completely genuine or derive out of sheer curiosity. but even so, it's clear that Chinese seek out foreigners in order to aquire things and that foreigners are typically more receptive to this kind of flattery than are chinese. latter many find that they have been bitten on the ass before they even know what happened.

                      i guess once you've been there for a while the PC thing starts to fade. you have to except it... know how to examine a person's intentions...cunstruct interpersonal lines, create and minipulate connection when available, etc -- even if it's contradictory to your logic or sense or reasoning. I think the only way to really build meaningful, long-term relationships and cross the cultural barriers is to understand the midset, except it...and then take steps to let others know you know and are not playing, or that you don't know anything (but actually you know and are playing.) ---- if that makes sense..lol..
                      Last edited by onesp1ng; 12-16-2006, 04:05 AM.
                      ZhongwenMovies.com

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                      • #26
                        are the chinese trustworthy???

                        I don't know where all this is coming from, but I asked doc about monks coming to detroit to teach/learn. and what I gathered was that you have to know who you are dealing with, as opposed to striking up random friendships. We all got baggage, but you wanna kinda know what people around you are gonna pull out, at any given moment.

                        I'm not speaking for doc, but I think that his time is spent trying to tell people the truth. which is oftimes a bitter pill to swallow. further, if you don't imerse yourself in the culture personaly, all he can offer are the representations that have impressed themselves upon him. we all do that. but the truth is; you can't live vicariously through someone else's adventures.


                        sorry if I stirred this bullsh** up doc,

                        peace onefocus

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by onefocus
                          I don't know where all this is coming from, but I asked doc about monks coming to detroit to teach/learn. and what I gathered was that you have to know who you are dealing with, as opposed to striking up random friendships.
                          Consider this.

                          I knew Xingwei for four years before I brought him to the US. Decheng knew him for about fifteen years, as his master, employer, and "father figure".

                          Xingwei apparently had no problems screwing either one of us once he found a way to stay in the US, via his "marriage".

                          Think about it.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)
                          russbo.com


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                          • #28
                            O.k., it is not enough to just know someone. you have to build an honest relationship. we've all been burned by that fire before, so what are we to do?! give up on trying? or press on towards our goals and put the people who would stand in our way in the "BUSTER" files.

                            with what you have been working to build, I'm sure it was a hella setback at that time. but as you know, " One monkey don't stop the show. "

                            but I believe the gist of your words are: PLAY AT YOUR OWN RISK.

                            but since you know what you are saying, i'll let you tell me.

                            peace

                            Onefocus

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                            • #29
                              It takes two people to build an honest relationship.

                              Therein lies the problem. He wasn't capable of that.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


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                              • #30
                                Ouch, sorry to hear that the whole Xingwei thing fell through.

                                I still wish had taken the chance to come over for one of the Monkmas things, it would have been nice to at least meet Decheng.
                                "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                                "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                                "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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