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  • #46
    SYM is closer to a monk than I'll ever be but I agree he's not what we think of as your traditional shaolin monk. Get over the fact that there is no magical shaolin temple. The world has evolved and for shaolin to survive it is evolving. You can't go back to living like they used to. The world doesnt work that way now. If you think you can then try your remedy for breaking sleep paralysis. Quit worrying about what's real a real monk and whats not. Worry about your training. If they have good gong fu then they have good gong fu...

    The deception is good gong fu. They work hard at keeping that persona alive. The character that we westerners have of monks comes from too many movies. Art imitated life and now life is imitating art. Ramble ramble ramble ramble.....I killed a cow with my iron palm today.
    "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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    • #47
      WEll shaolin is evolving like everything else in the world. In order to survive it has to change and adapt sure... The problem is they are trying to change and yet stay the same at the same time.. It doesnt work that way...

      Master-lu is right though i think.. The super nebulus definition of an authentic monk leaves it open to be damn enar anything. So, anyone can really claim to be an authentic shaolin monk and this cannot be disputed because there is no criteria to follow... Why stop at monk though lets all be Shaolin temple abbots... Yan ming did this too didnt he ha... he does call himself abbot of USAST...

      I personally think those that dont train in shaolin are not the one with the problem of beliving ina mystical and magical shaolin monk... These people train with random people across the world and enjoy it learning alot in whatever style they choose... I can say personally I train at 2 different locations and love both... Circus acrobatics and Wushu what a combo...

      It seems to me those within the shaolin scene have a notion of shaolins "special" nature inherent in its disciples and teachers... Too often.. and i stress too... the some common answer given falls along the lines of those who dont train in shaolin simply dont understand or dont get it... a rather arrogant position in my opinion i even thought so while i trained at shaolin... Its the very notion that shaolin can be some how different, special or unique in some way that sets it apart from all other martial arts that seems to indicate to me people think there is a kind of magical spark that is at work to set it apart...

      I also notice anytime anyone tres to point out things within the shaolin community or in the monks themselves the people get super defensive and try to turn the argument on those raising the questions... something i never quite understood...

      Someone says 'You know shaolin is not this super mystical temple where people learn to fly right?"

      In response "You just dont get it you have to get over the notion that shaolin is a mystical temple"

      I dont even know why this is said so often...
      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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      • #48
        Well how would you describe it to someone who only knows Shaolin from movies and video games and TV and cartoons and comics (awesome comic BTW)?

        The world is so inundated with these exaggerated stories. It's really hard for normal people to know what's true and what's not...so it makes it even harder for the few people who do know the truth to tell it. You get basically the same conversations we all have seen posted here and elsewhere about it (I assume elsewhere I never leave here.... )

        So Iron Cross how would you as someone who has had direct contact with the shaolin world describe it to someone who has no knowledge of shaolin, in a mildly positive way?
        "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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        • #49
          I doubt at this point I could even be mildy positive... but good question I'll try my best to answer it...

          I'd personally say Shaolin temple today is a watered down disney land version of its former self that has made its very principles subsidiary to the persuit or profit and exposure. I'd say the martial arts are moderate at best... there are dozen of other training locations to learn what you desire to learn better in my opinion, whether that be fighting or forms for exhibition. The monks themselves are opportunistic and lack any solid moral foundation.

          But then again I am totally biased in my opinion.... How would someone that thinks positively about shaolin describe it to an outsider?
          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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          • #50
            Hey! I like Shaolin i think very highly of Shaolin but i would still discribe it the same way as Iron cross. Things are what they are no matter if i like them or not- the discription given by Iron cross is still true- anyone can go see that.

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            • #51
              And if you want to learn good gong fu there are many great masters in china and around the world that can teach you the real deal. Just stay away from the so called Shaolin. But if you are a pretty girl go there you will be taught the special qi gong! My new shaolin name is now Shi yan LU ceeper of the secret qi transmitting techniques only taught to special students, prefferebly foreigners.

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              • #52
                I've never practiced in a Shaolin school in the U.S.. So all I know of learning Shaolin, first hand, is at a school that has no concept of being comercial. My Shifu met Yanming in Henan before he weft for the U.S. but he has no idea of the magnitude of what his school has become.

                So if you were to ask me to describe it positively I would say that Shaolin is a MA school where you will learn Wushu and / or Sanda. Simply put... Shaolin is seperated from standard Wushu by a few different stances. Other than that you will learn Wushu. And the Sanda is not much different from sparring in a Taekwando school. So if you want the opportunity to learn to spar as well as learn some stylistic Wushu, Shaolin is for you.
                That's what it is for me, and that's what I've wanted to learn. Notice that I left the concepts of Buddhism and Monks out of the picture. At my school Buddhism isn't taught.

                At my school in the U.S. I was supposedly learning traditional Gongfu. But later I would find out that only the most advanced students did any sparring, only they didn't wear pads and mainly practiced takedowns at a moderate speed. Not real sparring. So I was spending all my time learning barehand and weapon forms. The only thing that seperated it at all from Wushu was the forms had no running or aerial manuvers. That and we were also learning joint locks and takedowns, but I attributed that to the fact that my teacher also taught Hapkido.

                I'm a pacifist and began to realize that what I was really going for was to push the limitations of my body. And that's where Wushu comes into play. You have to push yourself to be able to perform the aerials, so what I wanted was to study Wushu or Shaolin Gongfu. But I went into with no illusions of what I would learn at a Shaolin school. Your only kidding yourself if you want to learn traditional MA from a Shaolin school. Those days are dead, gone, and never to return.

                So my explanation of what Shaolin is is positive in my eyes. It's a good thing that you can learn Wushu with a mix of some tweeked out stances. I like the acrobatics even if it isn't REAL gongfu. On top of that I get to get into a ring and actually punch and kick someone from time to time. This teaches you proper distance in a fight senario if nothing else. It's all positive in my eyes. But once again, I knew what I was getting into in the first place. I saw no "mystery" in the Shaolin of today. If that's what your looking for you need a smack !

                And for god sake, leave the holy monk thing out of it if you can help it.

                Of course, I'm not expected to say Amitofo every time I enter or exit a room.
                btw, if you want to see a few flics of my school go to,
                http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...ardin/?start=0

                the flics of my school are scattered on page 1 and page 3....
                "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                • #53
                  Hey, Master Lu...

                  Didn't realize you're from Sweden. I met a couple Swede's in Beijing two weeks back. They were great people ! Left me with good impression of Swedish people. You guys rock !!!

                  Too bad you have to pay so much for clothes !
                  "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                  • #54
                    Oh yeah?! Glad you got a good impression. I understand what you are talking about and deffinetly respect your informed choices. I have been trying to tell people the similar things as you talk about. That you can get good training etc anyway but as you see we are still in it with eachother since our friends here refuse to let go of the monk bluff.
                    I do hope that you are wrong about the real shaolin gongfu being dead though... you could be right but i hope not. May i ask, where in China are you? How long have you been there?

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                    • #55
                      Hey the image sells thats for sure... Like I stated already the martial arts training i'd consider moderate at best... Where I am training now is superior in every way possible... but, the shaolin temple schools have way more students simply because they are called shaolin temples.. if you drop the names and drop the monk titles they are such average or below average martial arts schools... Nothing super special anymore... few kung fu drills and some basic wushu forms... not even advanced wushu forms... maybe a few traditional sets thats all really... depending on the school might have some kick boxing type sparring...

                      You know I personally dont find anything wrong with traditional shaolin being dead... for the same reason i dont cry about people not riding horses to work everyday or not having to learn how to learn the abacus or slide rule... These things had their place in history and from them grew newer and better things for the curent world... The purpose of traditional shaolin martial arts was to beat people down that were trying to hurt you... now depending on where you live this is less and less likely to happen these days... and if someone really wants to hurt you they will use a gun in which case all the gong fu in the world means nothing... If someone came at me with a knife id run away screaming as loud as i could to draw attenion... call me a ***** and not respecting the warrior code or some bullshit but id be alive the next day...
                      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Yeah IC, I agree with you 100 % about traditional Gongfu having it's place in time. With the basics I've learned, mainly from Taekwando, if I was attacked I think I could defend myself. If I couldn't and I was beat down, well, hopefully it would be nothing too serious and I could get back up, recover, and go on with my life. If someone came at me with a knife I'd also take off running. I'm no bitch, I'm just not stupid. The same way if someone came up to with a gun I'd give 'em what they want, as opposed to trying some gongfu on 'em. Unless they were trying to rape my girl or something. I have lines and if someone crosses 'em I will give up my life defending 'em.

                        That said... Shaolin is fine for me. I personally don't feel it's moderate, but I'm still just a beginer at the Wushu stuff. What I learned at my school in the U.S. was, for the most part, much simpler than anything Shaolin has to offer. Except for Xiao Hong. That's a pretty damn easy form.

                        Oh, and Master Lu. I live in Shandong Province. A small town next to Weifang, self proclaimed kite capital of the world. My town is called Shouguang, famous in China for our vegitable production. We just got our first McDonalds about a month ago. I've lived here for a little over 6 months teaching English. I like it, for the most part, but, thank's to the fact that the town is made up of rich and poor farmers, the cultral differences you see in China are are taken too the extreem. I was in McDonalds today and someone had shit in the urinal (thing on the wall you piss in). What makes that worse is I think it was a girl who shat in it.... Not Cool.....

                        I plan to move to Beijing in July / August. I already found another Shaolin school there. Hopefully Beijingers have a little more sense.
                        "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                        • #57
                          Arhat and Chicken how long does it take you to answer my simple question?
                          okay i can understand Arhat it takes him a long time since his answer is going to be so advanced that i'll have to take both english and filosophy lessons to get his point but chicken whats up? don't love me anymore?

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                          • #58
                            Arhat does like to write really long replies... but then again i tend to ramble on at times too so really cant complain there....
                            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                            • #59
                              Same goes for me too but still....

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                              • #60
                                Well to be honest waht we may consider to be a simple question can be something a bit more complex to the "believers"..

                                When I was in school freshamn yer my roomates were born again christians.. we used to have all kinds of debates... I would aks what I considered to be simple questions pointing out fossil records or genetic evidence to support evolution... yet since they were so taken on creationism it was like there was a disconect in their minds and they couldnt deal with it.. to even consider the question was blasphemy to them...

                                I can see the same happening now that some claim to ahve found the tomb of jesus.. makes resurection difficult if your dead.

                                So, i've found when talking or debating about philosophy, faith or religion in any way shape or form a GREAT deal of patience is required... When debating religion with my roomamtes I would have to repeat something like 30 times before they would acknowledge it...

                                Roommate: Theres no evidence for evolution
                                Me: Umm fossil record?
                                Roommate: no evidence at all
                                Me: Fossil record?
                                Roommate: not a single shred
                                Me: Fossils... I have a few on my desk you walk past them everyday
                                Roommate: no evidence at all
                                Me: *show fossils* See! Right here
                                Roomamte: *long pause* that means nothing

                                So, In the end dont hate on arhat or chicken too much for not answering your question... Maybe they just dont want to talk about it anymore... or maybe they got no response... maybe they are formulating a response so powerful and deep we will be so blown away that we all become shaolin monks... or hell maybe you just stumped them...
                                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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