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  • #76
    Actually I think the fact that they all teach wushu and acrobatics only further illustrates why they are not "authentic"...
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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    • #77
      it's kind of impossible for me to answer your question, because I don't worship Yan Ming. Nor do I "believe" in Yan Ming, lol.

      What am I supposed to tell you Lu. You just proclaimed you like the explanation provided to you by a young man, I would say a little wet behind the ears, who admits he doesn't know the sets of vows, because nobody has told him- certainly he realizes these are internal temple traditions which google will never score a hit on- but you find his explanation great. Lmao. Anyway, letter of the law vs spirit is where he loses it for me. Nobody can tell me Buddha was not a "monk." So I don't particularly care what the code is, what it's punishments are, etc. because the vinaya is not the dharma and quite a bit of it is idiotic, if not mysogynistic. but LFJ has a lot of zeal and is a nice kid, I'm sure one day he will come to know what the last stage of monasticism is and why it is called what it is. For now maybe he needs these tools, obviously many people do, and many people get upset when their definitions are challenged or change over time.

      You people see one side of an institution, you find what you seek. You don't see what the good of the institution is. That's just the nature of things, like the news. Let Johnny graduate high school against all odds, you will hear nothing, let Johnny fall off a building or sell drugs and get arrested, 6 o'clock news. I have been an eyewitness for more good than bad, and the bad you can almost predict, like when Cross started imploding.

      For every person Yan Ming has "scammed" money out of, I can probably name 3 who train for free, or who have trained for free at one time. Several people right now are training for free. So I think to me the implication that it is all for money is kind of a joke, just because we don't go around thumping our chests about it. But please, by all means, assume away.

      For every "promo" opportunity, I can tell you about a visit to a prison, or a high school class who comes to visit and train as guests, or a school visit Yan Ming goes to speak about Ch'an and Shaolin's history. That these are all promo opportunities, or we are somehow raking in cash from these kinds of things is a joke. Anyone who doubts his knowledge of buddhism, you are invited to come test him your own damn self, I often enjoy the results of such "tests." Good learning experiences anyway to watch challengers get schooled. The man exhibits the exact knowledge one would expect a man of his claims to exhibit and I've seen it all first hand. I can't imagine that a completely lucid Su Xi would sit with us all and fabricate stories of back in the day, I doubt he would command the strength to actually shove off his wheel chair and be so full of love as to reminisce and become inspired to do some gong fu, the way he did, for a total and complete bastard as some of you seem to think we "worship."

      So basically I am saying kiss my proud shaolin ass.

      For every person "forced" to buy a new uniform, I can name you students who were given free sets when times were tough for them, even some posting here now, who seem to be able to now find some complaint that uniforms cost money, especially ones made from special fabrications and materials which make ours different and more expensive to produce. Old worn shoes, replaced for free, etc. Or people who couldn't afford lunch Yan Ming will treat, and so on and so forth with so many examples we could all gag, but yeah, obviously it's all about the money. If you want to believe that, I really no longer care to speak about it further beyond this post.

      In the end you will all believe what you want, the people willing to paint the picture you amazingly believe off hand is nice and vibrant so enjoy it. Some people will have direct experience of these things, some will be content to absorb others. I've noticed the blatant hypocrisy in a few posters which is basically laughable about them complaining when they were once beneficiaries, but hey that's human nature too. Nothing is ever one's own fault, or one's own perception, clearly. Frankly, I took a set of vows which I try and embody as much as I can. And if something were to happen to make me leave the temple, I would still respect those vows as having been made freely by me, and not predicated on any expectations or conditions, or what other people do or don't do other than that. Some people obviously trend towards becoming a dick when they leave, or get forced out, lol, and that is unfortunate because Shaolin, and those who have planted it's seed here abroad, are doing good work, and are doing very good things 99% of the time. But people are people and many will always trend to the negativity. One day we will have our temple, in fact we will have many, and nothing posted here or elsewhere is going to have any kind of bearing as to what that institution will or will not be. No matter what anyof you or I post, come some time we come to Trinidad, or wherever, someone lost will be found, someone found will discover more, and that's really all that matters to me. Most of you won't have anything to do with it at all so why the fuss and furor, or going out of your way to be a dick, is beyond me. Of course we can always just put a hah hah hah or smiley at the end of our posts and make everything just in fun.

      I can admit that I fail at following everything I know I should and am still working on it. In the sense that the dharma is inherent and self evident and self manifesting, this argument is frivolous, slightly amusing, but at a certain point one must recognize that things come in trends. This website used to be a bastion of support for all things Shaolin, Doc got fuçked over, and ironically by someone his own master shit canned, and plenty of people in the circle were let's say rather unsurprised, but I guess it makes good content, and here we are, so have fun Master Lu! This is the forum you are now creating, what a lovely job you have done so far. Love what you've done with the place, the color is really quite pleasant, and oh what a vibe.
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

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      • #78
        I do so love reading your posts Arhat... they are rather amusing..

        You realize you just basically admitted he scams people out of money... YOu said for every person he scams you can name 3 that train for free... Hooray good for them, I know a few who have done so too.... Its that one he scams that cant be ignored... The problem here is you know there is the one who gets scammed or shafted and turn a blind eye to the whole thing because you believe there is more good than bad in the place... Still there is the one getting blatantly ****ed... Is it any wonder why people continue to talk about these kinds of things???

        I mean for shits sake you sound like President Bush talking about iraq... Complaining that the media only reports the negative things like people being killed daily and not the positive things like there were elections held... but shit there are still those daily bombings guess we should all ignore them because of those electioned held and that sadam no logner tortures people.... but jesus another bomb went off and killed some people...

        Back in the day I enjoyed reading your posts i thought you always had great things to say... no adays i know theres more hot air than anything else in them... Its easy to talk down on someone that hasnt trained there and say they dont understand yan ming or his wisdom... I can even understand that... I dont think Lu has ever sat down and talked face to face with yan ming.... but I have... on many many ocassions..

        What should i mention how he thinks homosexuals cant be happy because of their lifestlye... not happy like the rest of us... should I mention how many times ive seen him completely drunk... and i mean completely... should i mention his behavior towards certain female students... I even got names for that one but dont expect me to name anyone here....

        But we wander lets get back to the buddhism thing... You know I could probably argue that buddha didnt consider himself a monk... I dont think he considered himself anything.. i think thats the purpose of his teachings.. it was only later on it was structured into a monastic order....

        Lets go back to the forced to buy new uniforms thing... I remember what he said exactly regarding that... "Every level 2 student must now wear full orange robes to level 2 class... if you dont have an orange robe you MUST buy a new one.. if you cant afford you cannot train" These are his words... no out of context bullshit... Ive NEVER seen him give way free things.. he always says pay me later...

        So, guess its easy to talk down to those who have never trained with yan ming and talked to hiim personally... But in my case and the case of others that have its a different story.... I got a millioin of these thigns I can go on and on if i want to.. none of them paint a really nice picture of yan ming or USAST... hell go read my post about my time on demo team.. on the Shi Yan Ming??? thread....

        Your right about oen thing though its easy to tell who will end up leaving.. Find the person that has free will, critical thinking skills or a desire to learn martial arts... lol

        Also I notice you dont mention martiala rts training there anymore... what gives??
        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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        • #79
          are you that obtuse, I guess you're also no judge of sarcasm.
          "Arhat, I am your father..."
          -the Dark Lord Cod

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          • #80
            Dang that was quick... if your anything it's punctual....
            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

            Comment


            • #81
              lmao, it's not the point what buddha called himself- although with your specious attempts at making a logical argument- and I use the term loosely, I'm sure you would find issue with whatever his self referrals were or were not.

              the point is buddha himself kept a family, and he was the monk, the buddha, whatever. you can pile on 10,000 rules that say otherwise, however that is still a fact of the matter and in my book a rather glaring indictment of those rules.

              and yes, let's put a microscope to a person and really take a good look. it's easy to make someone into a scumbag when the truth is a little more developed isn't it...but you've got plenty of rocks around and seem to have no problem tossing them, maybe one day you will get dosed your own way. you say you've talked with yan ming dozens of times, but trust me, you spoke AT him, you rarely, I mean rarely, talk WITH. and frankly, with all your runaway assumptions being posed like "honest" questions, sweet jesus.

              I don't have a lack for names or instances either, so please spare me the melodramatic bleating, take your balls out of your purse, and please grow up and stop being such a kid crusader.
              "Arhat, I am your father..."
              -the Dark Lord Cod

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              • #82
                Ok, So Iron Cross share with us what should be "authentic Shaolin".

                Arhat you hit on a very very interesting point that I been thinking about for a long time. This forum and web site was once very supportive of Shaolin. I can't seem to feel that now the forums have become nothing more but a trolling nest for guys like Iron Cross. It's kind of this is now the monster some of you created.
                http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                • #83
                  Stop being a kid crusader??? but I already built my wooden sword and foil helmet.... What am I going to do with them now???

                  Think I already stated what I thought "Authentic" Shaolin was.. go look it up I dont care enough to...

                  Arhat you were just saying no one can argue that buddha wasnt a monk and now your saying it doesnt matter what he called himself... wtf pick one....

                  Its fairly ballsy to assume what the conversations ive had with him entailed.. how ywould you know? you werent ever around.. The thins I mentioned wernt things I said that was all crap HE said to me and others...

                  On another note that fact that you have to stoop down to character assasination and name calling does little to support your case that... How does it look when the one defending yan ming and USAST is acting like a total ass???
                  The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Iron Cross, I have noticed a trend with you regarding when you are asked direct questions. You keep dodging the questions. This is the second or third time now that I have asked you a direct question and yer you respond with "go look it up, I dont care to". Well I have and couldn't find your answer. So I ask you again. If you feel like you know what authentic shaolin is please by all means lets us know and enlighten us with your knowledge about this.

                    The fact of the matter is that you claim modern shaolin is all wushu and another guy posting here is stating there are better wushu masters elsewhere but the confusing part is that you guys claim you dont want to learn wushu but yet the schools you are training at are wushu schools!! LOL
                    http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                    • #85
                      I never said I didnt want to go learn Wushu... I knew the entire time I was learning wushu... no difference to me.. the point is you can learn wushu from someone thats better able to teach you wushu... ie a wushu coach who studied in a university.. I mentioned this once before on another forum... Arhat kept saying shaolin changes and adapts and I mentioned it did that and they called it wushu but you all have beef with that... I personally dont care because its rare to find martial arts schools challenging each other these days or to need your secret lotus technique in a battle against the wu tang clan... warfare has changed and so has daily life...

                      In terms of what I think an "authentic shaolin monk" is... well i did mention it before sorry you couldnt find it I thought there was a serch feature on this board... well, anyways.. I started I beleived shaolin as it is now is essentially dead, a watered down disneyland version of its former self. So, in a very real sense there really arnt any "authentic" monks left... authentic in way one would consider these monks to be... by their own definition mind you... which in itself is so vague and nebulus anyone can claim ot be authentic... Look at master lu can anyone here actually disprove it? But then like any claim the burden of proof lies not with the skeptic but with the one making the claim.... YOu cant say I am an authentic shaolin monk and except everoyne to just trust you at your word then get mad when people question it... doesnt work that way...

                      But anyways there are probaly a few old old school guys left but none of us or anyone really is taking daily classes with them anymore... they are not long for this world either and when they are all gone sad to say shaolin goes with them... it already really has... The shaolin temple in china is now a tourist spot you can see a daily show.... it doesnt matter if some of our current "monks" claim a lineage either... yan ming can say hes a student of Yong Qian whos a student of Xing Zhen whos a student od De Bao... but it means exactly dick if you dont even practice what you preech...

                      So, in closing... what do I think an "Authentic" shaolin monk is?? I dont think there are any left... if I did I wouldnt consider ALL of shaolin BS...
                      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        ahhh ok so its learning wushu from a coach that studied in a university is better than learning wushu from a shaolin monk at shaolin is the meat and butter of your argument? wow. Yes shaolin changes and wushu (rather shaolin wushu) is now part of the curriculum. I don't think any shaolin students are saying this is not true and that's not the "beef" we are having. Yes wushu is taught but it is not all wushu. This is where most of you critics fail to see.

                        Yea I used the search method and most of the posts I read from you were nothing more than "character assasinations" against SYM, Arhat and the USAST. Re-read some of the stuff your saying. It's all over the place. I still didn't read a direct answer as to what you believe what "authentic shaolin" is even though you claimed you have. All your saying is that it doesn't exist. That doesn't answer anything. Again by your definition what do you believe is authentic shaolin or an authentic "shaolin monk". What in your mind what make you think otherwise? Yes Shaolin is a tourist attraction in China. A lot of that has to do with the government and how things operate over there. So is the Alamo in San Antonio Tx, and other historical sites in the USA. Just because they are regarded as tourist sites doesn't mean nothing significant happened there or that it makes it less of a place to see or dismiss the history behind these sites.

                        You are right in the sense that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim not the skeptic. You are making a huge claim and being the skeptic at the same time. A bigger claim than saying shaolin students are learning shaolin from a monk. So I think you are the one that has to prove otherwise and by what you are saying you are asking everyone who reads these forums to trust you at your word. It's a two way street. Now that doesn't work that way either which brings us to a dead end. I think most of what happened to you and your experiences at the USAST is an issue you need to pick up and talk with SYM. I am sure you will post something like you already did and have but now where do we go from here? I don't have a clue of what master lu is saying or claiming.

                        Since this thread got trolled over there is no point continuing it. In the end we are going to have 13 plus pages of debate and back of forth exchanges. No one is going to back down from their beliefs. I know you are on this site a lot Iron Cross and I am sure you want to have the last say in it all. It's a common trait in guys like you. So have at it. I just hope for the rest of the people who comes across these posts continue to recognize and focus on the positive and good things the modern monks and shaolin has to offer.
                        http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                        • #87
                          insults? oh I thought we were all just having lots and lots of fun! You know it's fun fun fun here at the new punchbag shaolin russbo! It's great, you just say all kinds of shit and then laugh and watch people's reactions...just like old times, but now I see we have shifted our focus to an old home.

                          Character assasination, now here we have true irony.

                          Talk about shifting goal posts.

                          In your opinion, was Gotama an authentic buddhist?

                          Was he a monk?

                          Please say yes so we can all shut up and go home.
                          "Arhat, I am your father..."
                          -the Dark Lord Cod

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                          • #88
                            I dont think its about haivng the last word.. its just if things keep being posted that I feel like commenting on I will.. whats the big deaL?

                            First point, I personally find it better to learn from someone that was trained to teacher than from someone that was trained to perform.... I remember reading on Jet Li's website ocne someone asked if they could learn from jet Li.. he said no because he doesnt know how to teach very well... but I mean lookat him in the movies he looks damn good.... Similar situation with the "shaolin" monks.... got the name going for them and can tell a good tale but when it boils down to it not the best teachers... in my experience their knowledge is limited... Just saying there are better teachers out there that dont have to live up to a title... If the shaolin monks and the teachers of shaolin were the undisputed champions of eaching and doing kung fu you'd see them tearing up the competition, fights, movies, tv, circuses and everything else you can think of... Do you ever see it? maybe on the rare ocassion... What I usually see is Trained Wushu athletes, MMA, trained stunt men and the like...

                            I dont know that I could give any definition that would satisfy you as to what an "authentic" shaolin monk is.... So, why dont you tell me what you think and I'll see if I agree or not... If you think about it there should be a general agreement as to what constitutes an "authentic" monk.... Something everyone here could say yeah thats pretty much it... Then the debate can go into whether or not those claiming to be monks embody this...

                            I really dont care if anyone trusts my word or believes anything I said... For the most part I am asking questions.. something arhat seems to hate... But with the burden of proof thing I think you fall into a sort of religious debate paradox.. Similar when someone says there is no god.. the atheist says its up to the believers to prove there is one and from a scientific viewpoint that makes perfect sense... however, to the believers the very notion of god is so embedded in their being that it seems ridiculous for there to be no god thus to them it makes sense to have to prove there isnt one... nevermind that you cant prove or disprove something that has no proof.... but then even thats open for interpretation...

                            Its not about backing down from ones beliefs.. Well, if it is in your case or the others than you got real issues... I heard this somewhere once and it made alot of sense to me..

                            " Faith and belief is the surrender of reason, and to do this is to negate the one thing that seperates us from the rest of the animals in the world"
                            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Iron Cross
                              So, in closing... what do I think an "Authentic" shaolin monk is?? I dont think there are any left... if I did I wouldnt consider ALL of shaolin BS...
                              a stellar non-answer, if not practically textbook. basically what you are saying is you don't know what an authentic shaolin monk is, but you are certain there are none left.

                              Is that a sasquatch in the room...
                              "Arhat, I am your father..."
                              -the Dark Lord Cod

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                DO you think he called himself a monk or a buddhist?? I would wager to say no on both accounts... I thought you were a TRUE shaolin disciple rich... you should have a deeper understanding of buddha and his philosophy and origins.... maybe you should start having buddhism class on saturdays again instead of watching tv and drinking...
                                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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