Authenticity of monks

[arhat]

one day, LFJ, you are going to figure out something very interesting.

[LFJ]

<(very interesting!)

[baiwanxi]

You've certainly done your homework.

I've taken eastern religion classes, read numerous books on Buddhism and Chinese cultural topics. As well as one certain novel that who's main character is a monk.

But your knowlage of the monastic life and what the ordination entails is well above the things I've learned !

Are you Buddhist, or just find it facinating ?

[LFJ]

baiwanxi-

in reply to your comment on my other post, there are three main versions of vinaya still used today. the theravada vinaya, tibetan uses the mulasarvastivada vinaya, and the chinese use the dharmagupta vinaya.

of these you'll generally be able to study the theravada vinaya in full. whereas the chinese ordination and training rules are reserved to those who have ordained. lay people will not find these available for reading.

however, it doesnt make too much of a difference because the vinaya versions only differ slightly. the major precepts are the same. a monk or nun must be celibate, abstaining from any sexual activity. this is always rule number one. if you want to know if someone is a monk or not, see that he is celibate and working for the benefit of others.

if someone takes the refuge vows, maybe novice vows, and nothing further, shaves their head and wears the robes, and teaches the dharma they are lay buddhists. at the most, priests. they can have kids. but they are not monks. they may be great dharma masters and teachers in fact, but they are not monks. monks ordained in any buddhist tradition must observe the training rule to remain celibate. if they do not take this precept they are not ordained monks. if its broken, they're no longer monks.

and if in defense of such a shameless person, someone says "parts of the vinaya are idiotic if not misogynistic", apparently this person has read topics in buddhism but hasnt been taught them in detail and so misunderstands the focus or reason of some rules as idiotic or misogynistic, and further does not even respect the vinaya which was one factor to the dharma ending age as predicted by the buddha (lack of vinaya respect by the laity) and so is a joke when trying speak on it.

the buddha gave 10 reasons as to why the training precepts were set up, one was in order to establish and uphold the true dharma. when monastics do not observe the vinaya and the laity do not respect it, the dharma message fades.

and saying "the vinaya is not the dharma" is forgetting the fact that the buddha referred to his teaching as dharma-vinaya, doctrine and discipline. both equal components. when in accordance with one you are in accordance with the other. when acting in discordance to one you are discording the other.

and assuming by the logic of a monk having kids resulting in "defeat" is to say the buddha was defeated, also shows lack of knowledge of the basic outline of the buddha's life. he started a family prior to his spiritual life. and afterward did not have more children.

i find the defense here pretty weak and also condescending at some points which is unfortunate that such people believe only what their teachers claim because it sounds attractive and then they try to spread those perverse ideas to the rest of the community. really its nothing short of slander.

[Iron Cross]

certainly, how buddhalike is it for a man to abandon his family? i would expect no less.

Interesting... Didnt yan ming leave a wife and 2 kids back in China?

[SongshanMonk]

baiwanxi-

if someone takes the refuge vows, maybe novice vows, and nothing further, shaves their head and wears the robes, and teaches the dharma they are lay buddhists. at the most, priests. they can have kids. but they are not monks. they may be great dharma masters and teachers in fact, but they are not monks. monks ordained in any buddhist tradition must observe the training rule to remain celibate. if they do not take this precept they are not ordained monks. if its broken, they're no longer monks.

.

Strange, sounds like the definition of a wuseng monk. hmph!

[baiwanxi]

Sounds like one, yeah. Too bad that would make all wuseng to be lay people and NOT monks........ Hmmm

[master-lu]

Hello dear comrads! I want to start with an apology to Arhat. Arhat you have taken the time to make such an effort, you wright and contribute so much i admire your devoution to this even if i seldom agree with anything you ever say. I meant no disrespect by not relpying i just havent had the time at all. Now that I'm back i see you guys have been at it like hell- i still havent read all of it.

To songshanmonk- what is the matter with you? You've been wrighting som funny stuff. How can you ask what Iron cross thinks is a real shaolin monk- he and others have been dealing with this for a long time we have all wrote shit load about it! Whats the problem? Because we critisize your god Yan ming you ask - "then what do you consider a real shaolin monk" come on man!!! It sure as hell is not a guy who acts and behaves like Yan ming or Yan-LU does so the question is irrelevant. What the hell!!!Iron cross does not even have to know shit about shaolin to understand that the behaviour he has seen from Yan ming and heard about is unacceptable. We have stated this a lot of times- get this straigt- I dont give a damn about what a real shaolin monk is, i dont have to know that- anyone knows that he is not in any way a hustler, womanizer or a drunk. Shit! Not even I am that bad!!! Once again I say there are some that some of us do consider real shaolin monks. The ones i think of live as vegetarians, develop chan and live in celibacy, no big deal you can live like a real monk so stop making silly excuses for those who do not.
About the Wushu or anything else. If you're going to learn it learn it from some one who really knows it thats all. This goes for anything you cant disagree with that can you? I don't do modern wushu anymore i was never any good at it but if I wanted to do it i would not go to the so called monks i go to other well established schools that knows what the hell they're doing so that when i'd injure myself they don't just put their hands on me, pull a little bit and tell me it's okay to continue. Thats dangerous.

The MONSTER was created by the so called shaolin order of today. None of us created this monster its their own doing, Dishonesty does not befit any buddhist order so this is what they get. I think this monster will grow big enough to devour shaolin if they don't change drastically.
Arhat i think you are dreaming!
Some people obviously trend towards becoming a dick when they leave, or get forced out, lol, and that is unfortunate because Shaolin, and those who have planted it's seed here abroad, are doing good work, and are doing very good things 99% of the time. But people are people and many will always trend to the negativity.
- One day we will have our temple, in fact we will have many, and nothing posted here or elsewhere is going to have any kind of bearing as to what that institution will or will not be. No matter what anyof you or I post, come some time we come to Trinidad, or wherever, someone lost will be found, someone found will discover more, and that's really all that matters to me.
Seriously Arhat! You are starting to scare me now this is spoken like a true fundamentialist! It's reputation your reputation, what people wright and say about you makes all the difference in the world! Do really mean that you don't see that?
You love what i have done with the place- I love reading your posts and I love the good work people like Yan ming and shaolin- fundamentalist- followers like you have done with the shaolin name. You guys bring shame on shaolin tradition and will be the end of it.

[master-lu]

But I am still A Shaolin monk!
/secret qi gong master shi Yan-LU

[baiwanxi]

Yeah, we know all about your "secret Qi Gong". Just make sure you keep practicing it on the women and not the men. And how exactly does that secret qi ging of yours apply to fighting ??? I mean, unless your fighting a girl. Now that's I match i'd like to see. The application of your secret qi gong in a real life senario, like at a bar when some girl needs to get put in her place.
Hahaha, secret Qi Gong.. Good stuff....

[master-lu]

Yes i understand your question. The combat application of my secret qi gong is a little hard to grasp at first but i give you one clue.- It is mostly a ground fighting skill, but of course you can find multiple ways of applying it too. The regular scenario in which I teach is in my school. It is peaceful and mostly deals with different types of exercises, like rubbing each other grappling on the mat and of course the gi ben gong- Tell the girls do the gi ben gong when they're really worked up from all the grappling/rubbing training. All the energi within them turns in to qi power when they start spreading and stretching their legs etc but you asked about another situation so okay i'll share-
Real life situation:


REMOVED: DOC

Secret qi gong master shi Yan-LU

[master-lu]

Secret qi gong master shi Yan-LU is one of the very few shaolin masters who teach applications too. Enjoy!

[baiwanxi]

I think you may have stumbled across something good here ! Ever consider writing a book and releasing a few of those "secrets" to the outside world ?

I have a feeling Yanming might already have studied some of "those" Shaolin techniques, but I think he only teaches 'em to the female students. So that just leaves YOU. Hey, you don't want to let age old techniques fall into obscurity, do you ? Who knows, you might even get rich in the process !

[Iron Cross]

Read my recent reply on the "Shi Yan Ming???" thread.. little insight on his use of forbidden qigong jutsu's... lol

[Chicken]

If a girl starts acting up first make sure who you are dealing with. If she is ugly walk away! If she's good looking- into battle.

REMOVEDOC


Secret qi gong master shi Yan-LU

This sounds much like advocating rape to me?

Chicken