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  • so what would be some honest questions, to, let's say Yan Ming, since he seems to be the apple of you're eyes, that would would give way to disingenuousness on his part and require the student to overlook certain elements of their training on the bases of faith?
    ZhongwenMovies.com

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    • It means, actually, that you can all speculate all you want...I've had enough time wasted providing other sides of the story to people, and honestly, if people can't accept a reasonable explanation but would rather run their dog I don't see the point to build up the animosity that would be needed to squash 95% of the bleating. If these 5 concerned members of russbo think they can do a better job at living their life than those who are committed to someone like Yan Ming, then let's see what fruits they can bear and please put yourselves out there so we can all take a nice critique and have fun scrutinizing and ripping all your shit to pieces.

      Why don't we closely examine the massive hypocrisy of some of these bleaters. Can they catch the stones they throw, obviously not, lol. But as Cross says, it's all fun, it's awesome to lob insults and assassinate characters when it's all a gag! ESPECIALLY when the object of the rocks isn't even here to answer the allegations and specious assertions.

      And I can rest assured that time will prove out, as it always does, anyway.
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

      Comment


      • Originally posted by arhat
        And I can rest assured that time will prove out, as it always does, anyway.
        Think we all agree that time will tell with this stuff.. we just disagree with the ending result... though history seems to lean in our favor i think...

        You guys build that temple upstate yet? its been how many years? a year since that last huge fund raiser event... just wondering where all the money has gone so far...
        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by master-lu
          Seriously Arhat! You are starting to scare me now this is spoken like a true fundamentialist! It's reputation your reputation, what people wright and say about you makes all the difference in the world! Do really mean that you don't see that?
          You love what i have done with the place- I love reading your posts and I love the good work people like Yan ming and shaolin- fundamentalist- followers like you have done with the shaolin name. You guys bring shame on shaolin tradition and will be the end of it.
          In the world to who? To YOU? Lmao. You don't know what I have done for Shaolin, you don't know the first of what Yan Ming has done. He sheltered more of Shaolin than you know about, from De Yang to Wan Heng....please get over yourself.

          You never asked about the work anyway, and I don't think I would care to even tell you, presently. Why don't you just rest comfortably in the version of what is going on that you have concocted, it seems to suit you.

          What I say about your opinions not mattering, is that I can read one of your specious assertive, and rather uninformed posts, and type out a long reply, or I can answer a letter from a prisoner we've visited who now sees the world differently, with a hope, or an email from a school kid, or deliver some small items we've collected for sick people, or work some more on the school being built because I actually live a fantasy as you say it, and make my vows actually matter, where kids now have flush toilets when they used to have pit toilets. So I can either sit here and write about these things to try and correct what opinions are out there, or I can do them. I prefer the doing.

          So no matter what you post or think about Shaolin or Yan Ming, none of these things will be affected by you. In the least. That is what I mean.
          "Arhat, I am your father..."
          -the Dark Lord Cod

          Comment


          • Arhat your words have touched me... Your right Yan Ming is so noble and pure a real living buddha.. do you think he will take me back??? I'll stand in the snow for days if need be... well there isnt any snow this year kinda a global warming thing... but I will shave tons of ice cubes to makes snow and then stand in it... I've seen teh error of my ways shaolin is the end all be all in compassion and charity... its so charitable all the negative things we say about it are negated... Its so charitable that even given the fact that other humanitarian organizations do more in those fields and arnt as corrupt or hypocritical, its STILL superior to them...

            I need to go back PLEEEEEEAAASE take me back...
            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hippo Foo
              Hey man, dont be a sexist... we already got more vows to take then men.. we don't need to add "women gossiping" to our list of crap to deal with...

              Also, this seems true. The non-believers do tend to bring more evidence to the table of why they feel the monks are not behaving in a very Buddhist way.. but there isn't much evidence of what behaviors makes these monks monk-like. I've questions this once and someone told me that I didn't understand because I didn't know the inner workings of the temple and was left like that. Of course I have no idea what that means, but it implied to me that I should have blind faith in what was going on and that everything worked out at the end...
              Don't take it literally...was more just a figure of speech.

              These "non-believers" seem to present evidence (and even then it's not concrete evidence) in a manner that just causes debates, puts people down and essentially results in "character asassination". I believe in constructive crticism based on ones own experiences.....not just a bunch of flaming posts degrading someone.

              While whoever told you that you didn't understand the inner workings of the temple is partially right, its mainly because there are a lot of politics involved. I am not even sure I understand it myself. I have witnessed things myself that I have thought "why"? and made me think that it shouldn't be this way but that is the outcome and nothing can change it. It's hard to understand the political workings if you have never been immersed in politics.
              http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

              Comment


              • Originally posted by master-lu
                Songshanmonk. How much of what we wright do you actually read? I am the only one claiming to be a shaolin master here, no one else did. None of us ever said all of shaolin this or that!!!! Come on! We do criticize most of shaolin of today, but none of us said all of it nore all of shaolins students- you can't say we did- when? where? What are you blind? I respect and still practice gong fu. We are "attacking" the self righteous hustlers, sectarians and tourist industry fakers of shaolin today. If that to you means all of shaolin then that would suggest YOU think thats all shaolin consists of and therefor hate on us for criticizing- I'm telling you. We never said "all of" anything.
                I read all of it. You are not getting it. You basically answered your own questions when you yourself typed "We do criticize most of shaolin of today" You guys absolutely do not agree with what I am saying or Arhat is saying so comon don't be silly. The "attacking" you are referring to is resulting in nothng more than degrading comments to the monks and they are just that....degrading. There is nothing constructive in the manner in which you are presenting this information. So really I ask you, how much of what is posted here do YOU read? Are YOU blind? How can you sit there behind a computer and keyboard and say you respect Kung Fu when you are participating in such an awful campaign? Do you not have Wu De?

                Self righteous hustlers, sectarians and tourist industry fakers?? Because the monks that leave shaolin who open their own schools and earn income to make a living are now classified as this? Oh and because they consider still refer to themselves as shaolin monks? Again master lu opinion...what experiences did you have to conclude this?


                Originally posted by master-lu
                Now, it's clear that you don't share our views on this- I respect that but don't say I said something I never said as I won't say you said something you never said. It's simple my friend.
                Have you not read from several people on this site about their own unfortunate experiences with these so called monks. Why are there so many dissatisfied customers from so many different places? I'm sure there will be even more as long as these hustlers are around doing there thing. What do you think? tell me about your view of todays shaolin let me understand you better
                As far as I am concerned if you are agreeing and posting with the other ones that bash the shaolin of today then your views are clear. It's not what you say but rather how you say it.....but oh yeah the very ones posting against modern shaolin are doing it in all fun and humor of course.

                I have read a few accounts and even spoke to a few that trained at one time or another at a shaolin school. It's not for everyone. I have heard all from its just wushu to they are fake monks to it wasn't what I expected. So often I seen people walk into these schools and demand the monk to "show what they know" in order for them to sign up. Of course when they get their answer real quick then all of a sudden they become a critic. As I said, most of the monks who have settled down outside of shaolin are martial monks. Some spent their entire adolescent years training at shaolin and leave when they become adults. Others leave earlier...it just depends. Some embraced buddhism while living at shaolin others didn't but obviously the main focus is on kung fu which of course Shaolin is most recognized for.....not for being a top buddhist monastery. If a lot of people wanted to become monks then there are other countries like Tibet, Thailand and India that probably have far more prestigious monasteries. So I say to some of you, what did you expect to accomplish when you attended a shaolin school?

                Now, I am not going to sit here and defend every action(s) that have come from shaolin or its monks. It's unfortunate that Iron Cross had a seizure while training at the USAST or that Doc was forced to close his school down because Xing Wei left or that there was demolition at shaolin a few years ago which lef t some locals homeless and businessless. Even Houston has had its share of former upset shaolin students. These are serious but questionable events. Perhaps these are events that most of us will never fully understand. Depsite some of these occurrences, I continue to support and recognize the good that shaolin has to offer.

                I find it interesting that there are modern "crusaders" against the shaolin of today. Perhaps some of you post here to provoke debates, degrade shaolin and the monks, or maybe some of the students that attend these schools or maybe eager to start some kind of modern day cultural revolution. I have seen far worse "self righteous hustlers" in the martial arts business than say what you think these monks are doing.
                http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                • That was an excelent post Songshan. I know I've done my share of "degrading". I don't completely wish to fall into this catagory though. Half of my reasoning for comming to China was, and still is, to learn Shaolin gongfu / wushu. I have been looking back over many of the Shaolin forms I have learned, forms my shifu teaches to the advanced students, as well as clips on Youtube. What I see is a clear line between more traditional influenced forms, and more wushu influenced forms. I have begun learning the more traditional. Xiao Hong and Da hong have no running, and no aerial moves. Da hong is a more complex version of the same type of forms I was learning at my old school, which supposedly taught only tradidtional. So I still find value in the martial arts I have learned through Shaolin. As I progress and reach a level where I can begin to learn the wushu moves and the forms that incorperate them, I will look forward to that too.

                  Also, I arived at Shaolin durring the Chinese New Year, a time when most of the monks had all gone home. What I saw inside the temple were devout Buddhists. Maybe they could also kick ass, or perform amazing wushu tricks, but the monks I saw were quietly sweeping the temple grounds, saying their prayers, and watching over the rooms of the temple. So I feel safe in the fact that Buddhism still exist at the temple.

                  My only problem is the Wuseng. Especially the married ones. I would just like to get to a bottom line. Are they still considered "monks" by the temple, or are they really more likened to lay people? Are they TRUELY permitted to marry after initiation as a Wuseng, and if so are they still considered a Wuseng or some other title ?

                  THat's all. I don't wish to bitch over opinions any more. I have been searching but can't find any REAL documentation. I just want to find some definite answers to those question.

                  That's where I'm comming from. That's where I'm at.
                  "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Baiwanxi
                    My only problem is the Wuseng. Especially the married ones. I would just like to get to a bottom line. Are they still considered "monks" by the temple, or are they really more likened to lay people? Are they TRUELY permitted to marry after initiation as a Wuseng, and if so are they still considered a Wuseng or some other title ?
                    Baiwanxi, if the Temple starts enforcing celibacy on the present and former occupants of Shaolin, I think you will find it will have more focus on it than Falungong.

                    The Temple only ever considers them Wuseng and not Heshang. If being married made any difference believe me there would be a lot less people taking tea with Yongxin.

                    But you have to ask youself. Would it be Buddhist to turn them away, just because they were married? It doesn't make their Buddhist beliefs any less devout, it just implies that they've taken a different path. Buddhists respect the paths of all living things equally. So would Yong Xin differentiate if asked to? I doubt it. It would be very unbuddhist, i.e. un-Shaolin and I think that's the point. In asking the question the Shaolin see you as being unenlightened, and they won't enlightening you, as, well, enlightenment is supposed to come from within.

                    Basically I think it helps to think of Shaolin as a school of learning. It works like a university. Warriors pass the entrance competition... they stay there for 3-4 years. At the end of 3-4 years, their gongfu is as good as any. The Temple can't offer them anything else other than touring round the world for a couple more years. They either decide to jump ship and start life as an immigrant somewhere, or back and life starts to happen to them, they get called home to meet their girlfriends... they go home. Some of them stick around, do the equivalent of masters degrees reading scriptures or whatever else they can glean about buddhism. Again if they are serious, I think you find, as Songshan says, they go to other temples where religion is given a higher priority. The Taoist Temple in Dengfeng is an example. SHX got much more spiritually from that Temple than being part of the circus at Shaolin.

                    If they are still there in their 30's reading scriptures on a daily basis, and not married, well yes I think you can consider them monks. Believe me there aren't many of them... and usually they are the ones that focused on their studies because they couldn't differentiate themselves by their gongfu, i.e. they were just average at it. So if you find one like this, its unlikely, although not impossible, that they will be the best practitioners or teachers.

                    Basically, if it behaves like a monk = Heshang, if it behaves like a lay person probably Wuseng, or one that never made it into the temple, in which case, a Professional Shaolin Martial Artist. Also bear in mind that since nobody enters into Shaolin today just to study Buddhism, the ones that are probably the most spirtitual are not likely to be the same ones who are the best a gongfu... so the likely Heshang candidates never get through the doors in the first place.

                    Chicken
                    Last edited by Chicken; 03-13-2007, 11:53 AM.

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                    • i should let it be known once again that i have never had anything to gripe about with people i hardly know. my whole reason for my post about ordination, its requirements, and sustenance was to correct the view that buddhist monks can be married and have children. or that there can be a "monk with broken vows" as i have seen written.

                      these things are not part of buddhist monasticism though i see people debating about what a monk is and what a monk is not so often.

                      so i tried to share a little about the basic precepts one would take to become ordained in any buddhist tradition. simple and straightforward.

                      if anyone were ordained as a monk or nun in the buddhist traditions the number one precept is complete celibacy. if one doesnt take this precept they cant be ordained. if one takes and breaks this precept it is "defeat" and they are automatically expelled.

                      but we have this concept of "wuseng" which no one else is able or willing to offer an explanation of. if they are to be considered monks, then by definition in buddhist traditions, guys like yanming have been expelled and are no longer monks.

                      but there must be something different here. since they "dont take all the vows". simply, they cant be called monks though in the buddhist sense if celibacy is not included. at most, priests- which are still part of the lay community.

                      the question here is simply, what vows do the wuseng take? if celibacy is not included then their title of "monk" is just honorary for their roles living in the temple. otherwise, they are either laity as priests or a new lineage of monks that dont follow buddhist monastic traditions and shouldnt use shi- sharing the family name of the buddha. (not to say they cant be in line with the dharma)

                      so, if anyone is able. clear it up. what vows do the wuseng take? upon knowing the precepts taken by the wuseng it can be concluded what position that puts them in the buddhist monastic or lay community and will further clear a lot of misconception and expose those who are no longer what they claim, if evidence should point to that.

                      and lastly i'd like to say i still admire yanming and have a lot of respect for him in many aspects. make no mistake. the same goes toward arhat who is a loyal disciple who does his part and represents. but the question still remains. whether it is concluded that yanming is a monk or not, i still find his personal understanding and practice of chan (as far as i have experienced and heard) to be admirable- looking aside all the gossip and rumors unconfirmed to me.

                      so those of you who know the basic precepts of a wuseng ordination, please share. otherwise the exchange of vague references and ego-loaded remarks will only end in less respect for the wuseng, many of whom will be seen as shameless fake monks.

                      at least for me, i would do my best to uphold any due respect to our masters if it is to my knowledge.

                      i'm assuming no one really knows anymore, including the wuseng themselves... which is the reason the line between monastic and laity are fading, quite apparently in the case of a few wuseng.

                      Comment


                      • The problem with your "assistance" LFJ, is that it is constructed around a fallacy, your starting point begs a definition, which is a faulty start. With this kind of argument, you can shave away or that when traditions split they are somehow invalidated as if there is only one true formal and orthodox "Buddhism". With this kind of approach we can shave off entire sects and invalidate several of the Ch'an families even.

                        In fact, we could have shaved off the First Patriarch, since he was defeated.

                        How close were we to having the first female patriarch. When this discussion arises, people seem to lose the ability to examine context. I have news for you all, Shaolin Temple does not require our approval for what they are, or what they claim to be, or even what they accept to be, or what other Buddhists are or do. It's like watching 7th Day Adventists foam at the mouth and say Catholics are actually worshipping the devil.

                        So that is why I laugh a lot at these things, people forget the skin the bones and everything, where we as a Chan tradition have come from, to try and make sense of an english word which is just the most expedient definition handy and covers at least 80 % of what we need the word to mean.
                        "Arhat, I am your father..."
                        -the Dark Lord Cod

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by baiwanxi
                          I have begun learning the more traditional. Xiao Hong and Da hong have no running, and no aerial moves. Da hong is a more complex version of the same type of forms I was learning at my old school, which supposedly taught only tradidtional. So I still find value in the martial arts I have learned through Shaolin. As I progress and reach a level where I can begin to learn the wushu moves and the forms that incorperate them, I will look forward to that too.
                          Interesting you say that because I have had a selected few on other forums swear by their life that Xiao Hung and Da hong is not traditional shaolin forms. Again they just sat back and flamed the issue.

                          Originally posted by baiwanxi
                          Also, I arived at Shaolin durring the Chinese New Year, a time when most of the monks had all gone home. What I saw inside the temple were devout Buddhists. Maybe they could also kick ass, or perform amazing wushu tricks, but the monks I saw were quietly sweeping the temple grounds, saying their prayers, and watching over the rooms of the temple. So I feel safe in the fact that Buddhism still exist at the temple.
                          Yes, I still believe that buddhist ceremonies still happen at the temple too. I just feel that the emphasis on shaolin is more geared towards kung fu and not the issue of entering the temple to become a religious ordained monk. Obviously buddhism is still taught to the wuseng there.

                          Originally posted by baiwanxi
                          My only problem is the Wuseng. Especially the married ones. I would just like to get to a bottom line. Are they still considered "monks" by the temple, or are they really more likened to lay people? Are they TRUELY permitted to marry after initiation as a Wuseng, and if so are they still considered a Wuseng or some other title ?

                          That's all. I don't wish to bitch over opinions any more. I have been searching but can't find any REAL documentation. I just want to find some definite answers to those question.

                          That's where I'm comming from. That's where I'm at
                          Totally understandable, however, this is rather a complicated issue. The answers you seek are not written down in black and white. The wuseng are dubbed martial monks and basically were created to carry on the kung fu tradition of shaolin. The wuseng take buddhist precepts but not all of them which allows them to eat meat drink alcohol. Obviously the main focus is on kung fu. This would constitute them as lay disciples of shaolin but they are still called/considered monks nonetheless. The celibacy part is the gray area. To my knowledge there has not been any Official hand me down announcements from Shaolin banning martial monks for marrying or having children....and there probably never will. I have spoken with Shi Xing Hao about some of these issues. He basically said life at shaolin while attending there is way different than life on the outside. Basically while at the temple you are under strict discipline but when you leave "big brother is not watching anymore". I am going to provide you two links not sure if you have already seen or heard of them. If you can get your hands on the special shaolin issues its worth buying and could give you some insight on the subject matter. By the way if you are so close to shaolin you are basically right at the front steps to get answers to your questions!

                          Shaolin 1

                          Shaolin 2
                          Last edited by SongshanMonk; 03-13-2007, 08:24 PM.
                          http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                          • arhat-

                            i think even though chan may seem rather unorthodox in its approach, still monasticism in chan temples has always been very orthodox despite the few "renegade monks", some of whom started their own followings and were indeed still in line with the dharma, though maybe not the vinaya. but through it all, a very orthodox monastic tradition has remained to this day within chan traditions.

                            some guys like yanming can be placed in such groups with the "renegade monks" who are still in line with the dharma and all. but as for monasticism, it cant just be manipulated to ones will without it becoming something new and separate or giving up the former ordination- no longer the monastic lineage of shakyamuni, though maybe the dharma lineage.

                            which may be no problem. it may be something great. but it cannot find its monastic roots in shakyamuni. especially when the vinaya is not accepted to be from him nor respected for its content. but still the family name shi- is used to name the ordained of this separate tradition, naming the ordinates as disciples of shakyamuni's monasticism, not simply the practitioners of his dharma.

                            so we're looking for clarification on where the wuseng stand in regards to the vinaya precepts they've taken and their ordination.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chicken
                              Baiwanxi, if the Temple starts enforcing celibacy on the present and former occupants of Shaolin, I think you will find it will have more focus on it than Falungong.

                              Chicken
                              Remind me to tell you a story about Shi De Hong, in fact, that just happened today. It's very relevant. Got to run and get dinner with Decheng.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


                              Comment


                              • Well Songshan, thanks for the articles. You found the best answer to our question that I have been able to come across in my searching... here it is:

                                Since China began reconstruction, Buddhism has worked towards organizing all Chinese monks under such bodies as the National Buddhist Association of China (where Shaolin Abbot Shi Yongxin holds a seat as vice-chairman). Strictly speaking, they have the authority to certify any real Buddhist monk. Buddhist monks sometimes travel from temple to temple, so some of the fully certified Shaolin monks were actually trained at different monasteries. It's also worthy of note that some monks who took their vows prior to the formation of this organization have yet to be "grandfathered" into the program. And of course, wuseng don't necessarily fall under their jurisdiction since it is secular to Shaolin.

                                Kungfu Magazine. Real or Fake. Gene Ching

                                and the meaning of "secular": not sacred; not monastic

                                So according to Gene Ching and Shi Decheng, Decheng was the focal point of this article, A Wuseng or Wenseng is a non-monastic monk. He / she can live inside or outside of the temple. This ranks him somewhere between the levels of layity and the fully ordained, on the scale of monasticism.

                                So Wuseng are NOT recognized by the National Buddhist Assosiation of China, however, they ARE recognized by Shaolin as I have seen, and posted a pic on russbo, of my shifu's cirtificate.

                                The article also said that, whereas monks, when inside the temple, are expected to be more strict in their Buddhist ways, such as practice vegetarianism, when outside the temple the rules are more lax and they do not have to abide by these rules. Also that many monks are both Wenseng (scholar) and Wuseng (martial). But that the Wenseng, being more interested in Buddhist philosophy, tend to stick to the vegetarianism when outside the temple. However, that IS a choice made by the monk.

                                The article states the fact that, in order to become a monk one must go through a examination of Buddhist and martial knowlage. The question of taking vows and becoming "ordained" is never addressed. I am led to belive that If a Shaolin monk is to become "ordained" he must do this through the National Buddhist Association of China. If this same person is happy to simply become a Shaolin monk (Wuseng or Wenseng), he simply must pass the examination recognized by Shi Yongxin, who as you saw sit as vice-Chairman of the NBAC.

                                As for the question of marriage, it is also not addressed in this article. I have a feeling it goes much as many of the supporters for the American Shaolin Wuseng on this site thought it does, a married Wuseng is not going to be de-robed for getting married. He will still be recognized by the temple, ie: Shi Yongxin. However, I'd be willing to bet, if he is an ordained monk by this National Buddhist Association, like Shi Yongxin himself, he would not be permitted to marry at risk of expulsion. I don't have the info to back this up, but I'd be willing to place my chips on that being the likely senario.

                                Once again, big ups Songshan for that article. Now I need to do a bit more research.

                                I think this should go up as it's own thread instead of remaining buried away in this one ! What do you all think ?
                                Last edited by baiwanxi; 03-14-2007, 11:52 AM.
                                "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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