Authenticity of monks

[SongshanMonk]

Well I think Iron cross started it right. I'll add that ofcourse I think that those other schools you're talking about are even bigger frauds and that they are hustlers too. That is not the issue here though- we are talking about shaolin. I don't have to complain about all the hustlers in the world. There being worse hustlers out there does not make the shaolin hustlers any less of a hustler in any case. Does it? Our view of monks is simple live as one if you claim you are one- has nothing to do with the movies, you know that. I don't by the crap they are trying to sell, the perfomers are cirkus artists, shaolin has become a cirkus full of performers who perform amazing tricks how shaolin is that? I dont by the concept of being monk but not living like one att all- If you live like an ordinary person, well most likely you are one and you're better of being honest about it- you can still get many lovely friends- can't you? I have heard of two monks that are considerd buddhist by others around china and the world. Shi de yang and shi de jian, they practice and develop chan, traditional shaolin medicine and gong fu, these are the three treasures of shaolin. Of course there are more of them but they ceep a very low profile in hustlerabbot yong xins shaolin. And they are buddhists not driven by interest in fame and fortune like the others. These we don't hear much about. We only see and hear about the flashy cirkus monkey monks with their bullshit. They wear their shaolin clothes and shave their heads wich relievs them of any responsibility for their behavior and actions. Shaolin fundamentalists like Arhat defend them and worship them what ever they do, why so desperate to worship a shaolin monk? Living as a monk is not some unattainable thing as you seem to believe. You say if they ar not monks who are? What a silly question, the world is full of buddhist monks and other monks and they all have a lot in common that I know even if I havent lived in china like you have to to know anything according to our funny friend chicken who believs that Monk to chinese peoplecould be anyone or anykind of person no matter how he lives or what he does- and hey he takes his referrence from living with them! Lord have mercy
Songshan monk do you understand what i mean by all this?

The other fraudulent schools are not the issue here? Why? My god you and Iron cross are on the great crusade to redeem shaolin. I would think this would cover all of shaolin not just a few selected individuals. Well apparently Iron Cross has decided to throw the monks in the hustlers of the world category a few posts ago. So hustlers are hustlers right? Why turn a blind eye to some hustlers and not all??

Ok, So you hear (keyword here) Shi De Yang and Shi Di Jian are considered buddhist because they "develop chan, traditional medicine and kung fu"? Wow Shi Xing Hao, Shi Yan Ming and most of the monks here in the states trained with those guys when they lived at shaolin. They are all kung fu brothers did the same training and lived the same way! Because De Yand and Di Jian still live at shaolin makes them a real monk from what you "hear"? What if De yang one day left shaolin and opened his own school say in the USA? This would mean earning income to make a living. Would he be considered anymore real to you because he is no longer living the life as a monk in poverty? You want to strip the monks of what they learned and experienced most of thier lives because they live not according to your expectations? Sorry but what you stated is not factual its hearsay.

Since we are now on 18 pages on this topic. I think Arhat and I tried to answer the questions that arise but obviously you don't accpet what we say so what's the use? The monks are secular martial monks not religious ordained monks. Don't know how to drive that point to you and I can't put it any other way. There were people who thought like you did years ago when I started training in shaolin and there are people who think like you now. Ironically all of you say the same thing and use the same arguments and jump to the same pre mature conclusions. For some of you thats where shaolin ends.

Oh forgot. Have you an answer to my previous questions about still traning even if they dropped the shaolin stuff about still doing you're positive things etc?

Absolutely. I signed up to learn kung fu. Their title or status doesn't make me think any different. Anything else that arises out of those circumstances say becoming a lay disciple would be an easter egg in a basket and a opportunity I would have to consider when I reach that point.

[LFJ]

chicken-

so its the color of the robe thats your point? if its a different color it is no longer a monastic robe? i think its a monastic robe with just a different color. simple as that.

even if the bright orange colors are only worn in shaolin and only by the wuseng, still they are monastics. a non-monastic layman is obviously not a monastic and shouldnt wear the robes that are reserved for the ordained, no matter the shade or color.

there is only one robe designated for the laity. the haiqing that is black with super wide sleeves. thats all. no other color. no other sleeve cut. because those others are for monastics only.

other than that, i'd probably say the white vests are fine for the laity because they are not monk robes of buddhist tradition.

also, its rare in china to find schools that have robes for the daily uniform. as i mentioned they are usually pants and a tshirt of matching color with the schools name on it. very simple.

even as i have seen of the overseas temple in nyc. their class uniform is an orange tshirt with black pants. what more do you need? but for performances they wear the monastic robes (though bright orange which changes nothing).

i would say, if you are laity stick with the tshirt and pants for training. and for performances if you must, use the vests at most. its typical shaolin yet not a monastic robe which isnt meant for the laity.

[master-lu]

Songshan Monk
Shi De Jian is not considered a monk just because he lives in shaolin. Would he go abroad open up a school and start making money drinking special water and swindling money etc he would no longer be a monk obviously! They do not all have the same training as you claim- hell no! And even if they would have trained together on some ocasion- what of it? If I go train with them for some time it still would not make me a monk- what? you think training with a monk makes you one too? Monkhood is not a virus that transmitts on contact.
Shi De Jian still refuses to open up a school since he is against making money in a commercial way like others. He acts and lives like a real shaolin monk- most of the others do not. Hear say? Good friends of mine have met him in china he is one of the fiew recognised as real by even the chinese who contrary to what chicken believes see shaolin as a tourist attraction cirkus. So- living like a real monk is the deal- if you can't live like a monk, without women alcohol etc, you can't be a monk, just wanting to call yourself one or loving the philosofies is not enough. You are not a monk just because you really want to be. This is hard for people like Arhat to understand so he makes up his wild excuses so that he and his hustler masters can remain in the shaolin club, a wattered down shaolin in wich you find womanizers, hustlers, cirkus artist performers, alcohol drinkers etc. In this shaolin club I too am a member- Secret qi gong master shi Yan- LU. But in the real shaolin and the rest of the world they laugh at me and most of my shaolin brothers for they know we are actors and some of us even hustlers, in it for money and fame. If you enjoy great wealth and seek riches in any way you are not a buddhist monk you need to understand that so hell yes if they open schools and get commercialized thats the end of their monkhood but sure they would still know gong fu if they ever knew it. You too seem to believe anything is acceptable behaviour, no matter what you do you are still a monk in the eyes of the shaolin but we saying it's not so- The Shaolin is a real buddhist temple don't need to go to tibet for that!!! Thats silly. The problem is that most claiming to be shaolin monks dont practise buddhism but still considers them selves monks and some behave so badly it would not even be acceptable by normal peoples standards, but to the shaolin fundamentalists it's all gooood. Hm. Understand what i'm talking about? Please tell me if you can exactly whear you disagree

[SongshanMonk]

Master lu,

You are just not understanding what I am trying to say, what I said and you are not seeing the big picture. What's the use? Your mind is made up already and nothing is going to change your view about the monks. The funny thing is you guys make it sound like the monks that have left shaolin and opened their own schools are rich beyond anyone's dreams and are out there doing horrible things to society. That's absurd. I said they all trained at shaolin at one time or another. Yes... to clarify not all monks do the same training as each eventually find their own specialty. The fact of the matter is that the monks lived and trained at shaolin at one time or another, which in my book would not constitute them as fake. Just because they leave Shaolin and open their own schools (which now means they have to earn income to make a living) doesn't make them any less of a person or take away anything they earned. Who are you to tell them they can't be considered a wuseng because they don't live the lifestyle you think they should live?? So hey, continue on with your crusade but just be sure to research things for yourself instead of relying on what people tell you.

[LFJ]

wu gulun gongfu academy- shi dejian lineage

http://www.shaolinwugulun.org/index.asp

[master-lu]

I do research, I talk about things I see and hear from friends and other people in the gong fu world you are included also. You seem to think I base my opinions about shaolin on what one or two people say on russbo. Well thats not the case- The so called shaolin have people everywhear- There are monks in Sweden with their own schools. And as usual they are not able to cooperate since those greedy bastards want all the money for them selves- they use the exact same tricks as yan ming with the different uniforms etc etc to their defence I can say that I have never heard of them drinking alcohol at least. The list goes on, they too do not act like even normal people. you see? Of course the ones I have met are all envolved with girls and all of them with female students, I don't mind that from a normal person but if you claim to be a monk- well you know the rest. Everything I read from people on russbo and other sites I can relate to. Sure there are good things too, lots of people enjoy the training and the fellowship, but more and more people are starting to turn away from them because of their way of behaving and doing things. The ones that do stay are some very mentaly interesting people, very sectarian they worship their master and can see no wrong doing what ever happens, who ever gets injured or severly yelled at etc( all of this I have witnessed here in Sweden I dont even have to go to USAST to see that kind of shit, like you can see when I discussed with Iron cross it looked like I was copying his stories. As I said I know several Arhats here and also Iron crosses the ones that have been abused by these hustlers and the ones that see the abuse and justify it with stupid even insane stuff like I saw you wrote too- You don't understand the politics of shaolin bla bla bla- Thats some real BULLSHIT!!!!! Any one can see its not right- Not even you can make excuses for dangerous negligant behaviour, no way man ,I don't believe even you would do that, would you? I'm sure Arhat would but not you, would you?
Opening a school does not make you evil you missread what I say, I said doing that and drinking alcohol etc- read again. You really misunderstand every word I wright or you just don't read all of it so you interpret it very strange every time- I think you're just fooling with me making me wright stuff. We do disagree on lots of things I'm sure but thats never the case with your replies. In your replies we disagree about stuff I never even said come on man if we're gonna disagree and discuss let it be based on things we actually say. What say you?

[master-lu]

To everyone else reading my discussion with songshan monk- I want to make it clear that my views on the shaolin have not been formed and are in no way a product of my spending time on russbo. My spending time on russbo reading what you guys say about shaolin has only further confirmed my beliefs about shaolin and her followers today. What I see on this site when people complain is that apparently it is not only the shaolin monks and gong fu masters on Sweden that are hustlers, you have them too. I don't even wright about what I have seen since lots of people here have allready wrote similar stuff, but if chicken, Arhat and songshanmonk are so very interested in my experiances i can wright about the crap I have seen- I know Iron cross, Doc and many others will laugh their asses off since every damn thing will be so familiar to them. We're talking sex scandals, endorsement money disapearing, government fundings for projects disapearing, restraining orders, one big ongoing as we speak -law suit, backstabbings of some really lojal people who work they're asses off to help the club, need I continue? Well I have not seen or heard anything envolving alcohol yet though but I know that one master wanted to have a party at his house with alcohol and he only envitet the girls even if I was standing right there! But hey I heard nothing more of it so I don't know if anything happened. To be fair, I actually had good times with some too but that does not in any way make up for all the shit they cause. Now that I know that most are worthless hustlers I can also tell when I see a good master. Just last week I stardet visiting one great xinyi master who shares his wisdom, does not act mystical and claim to know everything etc so there are good people in the gong fu world too, that goes for shaolin too even if they are hard as hell to find with it being such a tourist attraction and all. He has a website wich is of no use to you who dont know swedish but if anyone wants to check it out just say it.
As for shi de jian of shaolin personal friends of mine have met him and he too says that shaolin today is in a special situation, not what it is supposed to be. Songshanmonk do understand what we mean? I'm not saying that all shaolin is shit- but anyone who does shit or acts like shit will deffinetly be considered as SHIT. If your master is a good person than thats great I'm happy for you and there is nothing more to it, right? But do not in any way try telling people that the shit they've seen or experianced is okay and that the ones hustling peple under the shaolin name are monks. A monk lives like a monk, not like me.
/Secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi yan-LU

[SongshanMonk]

Master lu

Well then I guess we just don't understand each other do we? What I am telling you is that you should go out and seek your own answers....do not rely in on too much of what people tell you. Anyone can see Shaolin is not where it should be.....that's because it's under goverment control and they are not a democracy. It's politics. That's not the main issue here. The issue is you are saying the monks are "hustlers" because they want to earn money for themselves and live scandalous lives with their riches. You can go by what you see and I can go by what I see. Everything you have posted is your opinion on the entire subject matter. Again, you are essentially saying that if the monks in any way live a "normal" life like me an you then they should not be a monk. Sorry but the word "monk" is just a title nothing more. Regardless if a monk renounces himself and is no longer a "monk" he has still had the same training and experiences. There is nothing that can take away that. What the critics like you are trying to say is that they should forget all that and all things shaolin once they step out. So I say again...the martial monks of shaolin are not religious ordained monks. How many times do I need to repeat that to you so you understand this?? - read again.

To clear something else up, I never said that the "shit" people have seen or experienced is okay. I said that it is unfortuante that there have been some negative incidents to the shaolin name which gives it a bad reputation. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have seen my share of "shit" over here to with the monks too. The difference between me and you is that I do not focus and concentrate on that. I focus on the good of Shaolin and what it has to offer. So I suppose if 50 people ran and jumped off a bridge so would you because they all ran and did it for the same or similar reasons? It must be the way because so many people did it? Don't be a follower of that. The whole view about "hustling" is your thoughts and opinions. There are hundreds of students these monks teach and would dispute ypur claims. It seems that there are only four of you on this website out of hundreds that are going around stirring the pot on this. Like I said it all starts with the "fake monk" claim, "they all teach wushu" argument and now they "stab each other in the back for money". My gosh if you and a few others are so disgruntled about modern shaolin then why spend your time on something you don't like? Perhps maybe because misery enjoys company.

/songshanmonk student of the secret shaolin society in America

[Chicken]

so its the color of the robe thats your point? if its a different color it is no longer a monastic robe? i think its a monastic robe with just a different color. simple as that.

Nope the cut and design is considerably different to other monastic robes, its very much a fighting robe.

even if the bright orange colors are only worn in shaolin and only by the wuseng, still they are monastics. a non-monastic layman is obviously not a monastic and shouldnt wear the robes that are reserved for the ordained, no matter the shade or color.

there is only one robe designated for the laity. the haiqing that is black with super wide sleeves. thats all. no other color. no other sleeve cut. because those others are for monastics only.

other than that, i'd probably say the white vests are fine for the laity because they are not monk robes of buddhist tradition.

also, its rare in china to find schools that have robes for the daily uniform. as i mentioned they are usually pants and a tshirt of matching color with the schools name on it. very simple.

even as i have seen of the overseas temple in nyc. their class uniform is an orange tshirt with black pants. what more do you need? but for performances they wear the monastic robes (though bright orange which changes nothing).

i would say, if you are laity stick with the tshirt and pants for training. and for performances if you must, use the vests at most. its typical shaolin yet not a monastic robe which isnt meant for the laity.

What is historical and what goes on now are two different things.

Historically what you say could not have been practical, Shaolin always had the disposition to keep 500 warriors - from Emperor TaiZhong in the 600s, and there was no requirement that these had to be full monastics. So you would have non monastics wearing different clothing to the monastic warriors? Mmm can't see that that would be good for warrior moral.

Today the demand to wear the warriors suits comes as much from the international students than the warriors making them wear them. The warriors know that practically there are more comfortable clothes to train in than the uniforms, but the students want the theatre as much as the gongfu... so what do you do, not give them uniforms, and watch them go down the road and take a Karate class in the white P-Js, or give them a warrior suit?

This said I see where you are coming from LFJ, but I percieve it to be a bit of wishful thinking in places.

Chicken

[master-lu]

[quote=SongshanMonk]Master lu

Well then I guess we just don't understand each other do we? What I am telling you is that you should go out and seek your own answers....do not rely in on too much of what people tell you.- I do agree, I seek my own answers, did you not read the part about all the shit I have seen personaly, I'm not following anything I made it really clear in the second text i wrote check it out. I said that my views on shaolin are not a product of my time on this site etc etc.


Anyone can see Shaolin is not where it should be.....that's because it's under goverment control and they are not a democracy. It's politics. That's not the main issue here. -I totally agree with you on this.

The issue is you are saying the monks are "hustlers" because they want to earn money for themselves and live scandalous lives with their riches. - Well yes.

You can go by what you see and I can go by what I see. Everything you have posted is your opinion on the entire subject matter. - True.

Again, you are essentially saying that if the monks in any way live a "normal" life like me an you then they should not be a monk.- Essentially yes but that depends on how, I specifically mean if they drink alcohol like us, have sex etc..

Sorry but the word "monk" is just a title nothing more.- Well ofcourse one could argue that but the issue is that this title carrys with it a whole package, it is not just an empty title in that case you would be saying that I too am a real monk, do you consider shi yan- LU a monk? All titles carry with them a set of principles that entitles them with the title in question. A doctor means you are a doctor in some way etc all titles mean different things a carry different sets of values and principles. Do you mean that the Titel Shaolin monk is empty means nothing? Well then we are all monks as soon as we feel like it isn't it? - Herein lies the dispute I think.

Regardless if a monk renounces himself and is no longer a "monk" he has still had the same training and experiences. There is nothing that can take away that. - That is correct.
What the critics like you are trying to say is that they should forget all that and all things shaolin once they step out. - No that is not what we are saying, not at all!!!! This is why I think you don't read what I wright!

So I say again...the martial monks of shaolin are not religious ordained monks. How many times do I need to repeat that to you so you understand this?? - read again.- The ones I have seen and heard about do claim to be religious ordained monks maybe thats the problem. You too know that a lot of socalled monks out there are claiming to be the whole package when they're clearly not

To clear something else up, I never said that the "shit" people have seen or experienced is okay. - Thats good. That was meant for the fundamentalists.

I said that it is unfortuante that there have been some negative incidents to the shaolin name which gives it a bad reputation. Please do not put words in my mouth. - I agree and did not mean to put anything in your mouth!

I have seen my share of "shit" over here to with the monks too. The difference between me and you is that I do not focus and concentrate on that. I focus on the good of Shaolin and what it has to offer. So I suppose if 50 people ran and jumped off a bridge so would you because they all ran and did it for the same or similar reasons? It must be the way because so many people did it? Don't be a follower of that. -I am not a follower of that. as I say what i wright is about stuff I have seen my self etc... I am not focusing my life on the negativities of shaolin but this topic here dealt with this thats why we talk about it I too enjoy positiv sides of shaolin and her teachings and gong fu. Need not exagerate. And about the bridge- I would say that I have seen people jump off the bridge in sweden too and I would discuss the reason for them doing this thats not the same as jumping with them I'm telling you it's very clear that you no nothing of my experience and intentions thats why you have been missreading everything into some kind of following behaviour but now you know thats not the case- I've got a ton of stories for you if you're interested which I suppose you are not since you focus on the good things etc which is understandable but don't try to tell the unsatisfied customers that they are all wrong when they complain and that they are all just following one unsatisfied customer- they all have their own issues with people connected to shaolin and it is their right to complain if they want to! that is what has been going on here- understand?

The whole view about "hustling" is your thoughts and opinions. There are hundreds of students these monks teach and would dispute ypur claims.- Ofcourse.
It seems that there are only four of you on this website out of hundreds that are going around stirring the pot on this. - Well there are more and lots more agreeing with us!

Like I said it all starts with the "fake monk" claim, "they all teach wushu" argument and now they "stab each other in the back for money". My gosh if you and a few others are so disgruntled about modern shaolin then why spend your time on something you don't like? Perhps maybe because misery enjoys company. - Hahahaha good question but thats not the case really but still I understand what you mean if I just look at it the way you do, you just don't understand what we are doing when we discuss this another missinterpretation an understandable one thou. Are we now a little closer to understanding each other? Sure we do not share the same opinions but now at least you can see whear I'm coming from and what we are doing here can you?
/Secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple Shi Yan-LU

[SongshanMonk]

Well then......

The End!

[master-lu]

Hahahaa the end of our discussion but I have a feeling this will never end, I think it will get even worse in time.
Secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi yan-LU

[LFJ]

The Real End

i have a friend who was originally ordained at baimasi. then he was accepted at shaolinsi. and is now studying in fengxuesi. so he knows pretty much both sides of monasticism. shaolin and other. i sent him an email asking about levels in shaolin. this is the reply i got:

This a compicated question. As far as I know:
1. Layman disciple (chin.: sujiadizi 俗家弟子)
2. Young Buddhist priest, acolyte (chin.: xiaoshami 小沙彌)
3. Buddhist priest, acolyte (chin.: shami 沙彌)
4. Monk student (chin.: xueseng 学僧)
5. Buddhist monk (chin.: heshang 和尚- in Shaolinsi they used to call them Buddhist scholar (chin.: wenseng 文僧) a title which based on the Sanskrit (chin.: fanwen 梵文) orientation of Buddhism) or warrior monk (chin.: wuseng 武僧)
5. Abbot (chin.: fangzhang 方丈)

A Buddhist monk (chin.: heshang 和尚) can have:
1. Layman disciple (chin.: sujiadizi 俗家弟子)
2. Young Buddhist priest, acolyte (chin.: xiaoshami 小沙彌)
3. Buddhist priest, acolyte (chin.: shami 沙彌)
4. Monk student (chin.: xueseng 学僧)

A warrior monk (chin.: wuseng 武僧) can have:
1. Laymen disciples (chin.: sujiadizi 俗家弟子)
2. Students (chin.: xuesheng 学生)
3. Apprentices/disciples (chin.: tudi 徒弟)

Amituofo

some of these are new to me, such as the difference between shami and xiaoshami (the latter being the ones under 20). and the xueseng (monk student) is completely new to me. (notice xueseng is different than xuesheng, seng denotes a monastic- xuesheng is a plain no-vows-taken student)

after receiving this reply, i asked the precepts at each level and interestingly enough, this was the response:

A heshang is fully ordained with the pratimoksha precepts.
A wuseng is ordained with 5 precepts and usually he is considered as a secular. (but there are also some exceptions with 10 precepts.)
A shami and xiaoshami are ordained with 10 precepts.
A xueseng is ordained with 48 vows.

so the division may be heshang, wuseng, shami, xiaoshami, and xueseng as the five groups. by the reply it seems wenseng is just another name for the heshang, used to show the difference between heshang and wuseng. but i have asked and am awaiting reply.

so the good news though is that the wuseng ordination has been explained. they are ordained with five precepts, as i suspected was the only possibility. which means guys like yanming are still ordained and just fine having kids and all. they are monastics yet still secular as i guessed in that past post. also the bodhisattva precepts are a choice. (that means vegetarianism) also the five precepts are more lax meaning celibacy is not included and drinking is fine as long as you dont allow yourself to become intoxicated.

so, i hope that helps end some debate, argument, and insults out of ignorance to people who dont deserve it.

amituofo! _/_

[Chicken]

Awesome LFJ... you sleuth you!

The warriors were rewarded the privilege of eating meat and drinking wine, and not refraining from taking life by Emperor Li Shimin in the 600s.

I realise a lot of people still consider it not Buddhist to take what the Emperor says over Buddist beliefs, so alleging that they are not really Buddhists... but the reality in China is quite different in line with the different socio-political topology. The Emperor is percieved as the link between Heaven and the celestial plain. Therefore what he says counts. Its been like this for close nearly 5,000 years... its not just a belief, its an absolute to the Chinese.

I don't think that much has changed, in present day China, the CCP is the dynasty... and what the CCP says goes... the Chinese over here really don't seem to have a problem with this at all, and I at least have never heard it questioned.

This is why I percieve that they don't have an issue with what is going on at Shaolin, in fact it has probably always been like this. The Abbot practising Buddhism on egg-shells around the political ideology.

Anyway again, great post.

Chicken

[baiwanxi]

Way to be ! Lo and Behold, the "Kung Fu" mag articles Songshan turned me onto were right in line with what LFJ was to find. Wuseng can have a family and still be considered "monastic".

And all was good with the russbo family and all slept well