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  • Originally posted by LFJ
    why wouldnt shaolin differentiate between the two? the monastic tradition is still from shakymuni's lineage following the vinaya set up by him, in which there is a big differentiation here.
    Said it many a time, because I think you would find that it would be seen as against the principles enshrined by the CCP, and so it would be the harbinger of Shaolin doom. It would signify that Shaolin is taking its philosophy very seriously, and although the CCP believes that everyone can practise Religion, I think you will find that they still believe that they have a monopoly on philosophy. Do we know of any present day great Chinese philosophers, who are not tools of the CCP? - A situation that applies to Shaolin, it is a tool of the CCP. "See, look, the Shaolin Temple is flourishing, we do support religious freedom in China!" I think the CCP likes the agenda that its got a virtual Temple with a bunch of working-from-home, performing
    artists that draw in a lot of tourist dollars. Think you find that as soon as Shaolin starts on its own agenda, with that amount of public including international influence, the CCP will pull the rug out, so to say.

    I agree with you that there is a big differentiation, I'm not saying that I think that Shaolin is right in the diferentiation that it is taking, I'm just trying to qualify the likely causative influence of differentiation.

    Originally posted by LFJ
    i still dont know what these "levels" are or what they refer to, and no one else seems to know or be willing to share it thus far.
    I can only comment from the evidence that I've had placed be for me, but I think you find that in absence of admitting wenseng, they give presently only give admittance to those who have the best performing ability, and they do differentiate. In as much, that being extremely good implies you've done more gongfu than others - which in the shaolin tradition implies that you have more perseverence and commitment to enlightenment / have more incommon with Damo nature than others (Jez... starting to sound like BTL all of a sudden!), therefore deserve a higher rank.

    I think SHX got the higher rank because he came in first and he wasn't scored / marked at entrance as "Fine" but "Outstanding". I hasten to point out that he auditioned in front of Yongxin, and YongXin precepted him, gave him his precept. You know its like getting called up by Sir Ron Ferguson and getting a place in the Manchester United Premier Team, not just a place in the squad.

    Originally posted by LFJ
    when you find these robes in the stores, they are meant for you to buy as gifts to monastics, not for you to wear as fashion or training clothes.
    You think so? I'm not aware that they are worn by any other monastics in China other than the Shaolin? Speaking from experience, they rarely wear them on a day-to-day basis. I've only ever seen them wear like the bottoms with T-shirts to teach foreigners. They only get the suits if they are performing, there are 100's of different suit manufacturers out there, 100's of different suits all slightly different. When they are performing they like them all looking the same, so they usually get a new suit for every new performance they do. SHX will not wear his suits unless he's performing, and currently he's in love with his grey suit... I think its because its more comfortable. For teaching he wears standard monk clothes with frog buttons down the front with pockets. I think they find the standard orange suits a bit boring... they like the multi-coloured one's with sparkly bits for performing.

    SHX doesn't really mind if people want to wear the suits. Its what you can do in the suit that counts / commands respect, not the wearing of it.

    Originally posted by LFJ
    but you cant really side-step it and still claim to be a buddhist monastic sangha. it is no longer buddhist ordination in such a case.
    Agree, only that doesn't seem to apply in present day Shaolin.

    Originally posted by LFJ
    because more and more the wuseng just want to pass themselves off as fully ordained monks who practice martial arts.
    Do they? I don't think so. Like that is how it is in Dengfeng & Shaolin. I don't think there's anymore wanting to do it as there has been for the last 20 years. And by Shaolin, they are considered to be fully ordained monks who practise martial arts, and are married and have children.

    Originally posted by LFJ
    the simple fact is that the wuseng with children have automatically been disrobed and expelled for the rest of their lives.
    But they haven't been automatically disrobed and expelled for the rest of their lives. All but a very few of the next tier below YongXin are married with children. And I don't think they claim monkhood, and that this is a shameless misrepresentation, its just that right now, the Temple dictates that they are monks. Mainly because well, they need monks. Its not like the story is the same if you say that 99% of all the Shaolin Warriors currently out there are expelled from the temple on account of breaking the celibacy precept.... because then well there's only 12 monks that fit your description and all of them are too old to perform. You know what they say... "Don't believe the hype. " Well I think that's it... its hype, that's the problem with spin... eventually somewhere along the line people get taken in by it. That's the way the world is run today... I don't think you will find that Shaolin is any differnt, in actual fact old Yong Xin isn't doing too baddly at tiptoeing through the present political climate, I wonder if he has a spin doctor or if its all coming from him?

    Anyway, I think what you deduce below is probably pretty close to the mark. It fits in with my understanding / observations. It will be interesting if you do get this confirmed, problem is I think there are very few out there that understand how the system works, therefore getting it confirmed is also far from straight forward.

    Thanks again.

    Chicken

    Comment


    • Baiwanxi, glad you liked the references I posted. Gene Ching has had just as many trips to shaolin as Doc has including making some documentaries. While he is more "pro shaolin" a lot of people just chalk it up to mere propaganda. I think Gene Ching will be in China in July but I am not sure if its close to you or not. If he is I recommend visiting with him if you can.

      I feel most of the wuseng or martial monks have spent significant time training at shaolin. They are exceptional and qualified kung fu masters/ They still continue the martial arts tradition of shaolin. I don't regard wuseng as fully ordained religious monks, but they still fall under a branch of monks. Unless you train with one of the monks or been to shaolin the aveage person is not going to understand these issues because they are rather complex. They are complex for a reason and most of it is politics. Since we live in a age of simplicity where most of your daily activities can done with the push of an enter button on a keyboard a lot of people are just too lazy to research so instead they look things at face value and come to a premature conclusion. Just because its the year 2007 doesn't mean the shaolin of today can pick up the broken lineages and continue with them.

      As I have said before, I have seen far more monstrosities in our own back yard. The schools that use the name "shaolin" but dont have an ounce of shaolin tradition and ripping poor unsuspected people off as some of you claim the modern monks are doing (the monks that are coming from shaolin mind you)....but oops i seem to be forgetting the important issue here which is attacking the reputation of the shaolin monks of today. Again, Iam not excusing what happened to Doc or Iron Cross per say. Some things just happen, but even after such events shaolin shouldn't be stereotyped. Doc has had just as much reason to have easily jumped on the anti shaolin bandwagon as anyone else.

      As to master lu, Iron Cross, LFJ and others regarding the whole "buddhist vows/monk" issue, question all you want and I hope you find the answers to your questions (even though some of you seemed to have made up your mind already). But if you do anything research before you just decide to sit back and cut someone down without any merit. I think some of you are too consumed about the monk's personal lives and what they do as oppose to what they have to offer and the fact that they are in some way continuing the shaolin tradition.
      http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

      Comment


      • So the ends justify the means? I'm sorry I just don't agree with that kind of thinking here... I think what they do is not only relevant to what they offer but related. Just out of curiosity do you have a limit to someones action before you would stop following or listening to them? would it be murder, rape, fraud, corruption or something other thing?

        Sorry I just find it somewhat odd and rather pathetic that you can say with a straight face you dont care if the people you idolize are in fact horrible people just because they talk philosophy with you...

        Guess you can play the ends justify the means game all day long with history... rarely does it ever justify it in the end...
        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

        Comment


        • chicken and all-

          have a look around this link on the monastic community: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/budd.../monastics.htm

          and chicken, some pictures of chinese robes here: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/budd...obes_china.htm

          as you can see, chinese monastics of all traditions wear the same robes. whether chan or pureland or what have you. you have the cross-over on the right and the button-down on the left. the button down is the "work clothing" that monks wear into the city or when doing work rather than ceremony and practice. they come in different lengths and colors. the lengths are waist, knee, and ankle. they are exactly the same as used in shaolin. and in all traditions they are reserved exclusively to the ordained. not to be worn by any of the laity. the laity can wear an ankle long black robe with super wide sleeves. this is called the haiqing and is the only robe worn by the laity and only during ceremony or practice. it is not fit for training martial arts.

          and you may notice, at many school in dengfeng there is a uniform of pants and tshirts, not robes. though robes are sometimes used for performance. but it should always be pants and tshirts or something else for the laity to train in. never the robes reserved for the monastics. but its good for performance they think. but its simply wrong to do that. a monk should not give out his robes or alms bowl. but people in shaolin obviously dont respect buddhist traditions stipulated by the buddha shakyamuni. they're just all about philosophy and screw everything else. which if you want to do that, then dont be attached to the style of the robes or the vows that you cant honor. drop it all and be an enlightened layman. whats bad about that? no required fee for dharma teaching?

          songshanmonk-

          i'm not making up my mind or trying to cut anyone down. i'm talking about buddhist monastic traditions and respect to the vinaya and shakyamuni buddha. this is the way it is in buddhist monastic traditions. though, i hope my hypothesis on the levels of ordination in shaolin would be confirmed so that this side of shaolin can still be authentic and respectable rather than a shameless misrepresentation. but i dont know. as i said, i know the good merits of shaolin training and philosophy. hence the reason i'm trying to understand the hidden truths about its monasticism. otherwise, mind made up one way or another, it doesnt change the fact that shaolin would be as much of a joke as the rest of the buddhist world has come to see it.
          Last edited by LFJ; 03-17-2007, 02:31 AM.

          Comment


          • Can I really be too consumed with what a person does? What does a hustler have to offer me? I think the only thing they are carrying on is the now tarnished shaolin name and perhaps some gong fu. You can't ask me to ignore their doings- I am not saying htat they are all evil, just that most of them are ordinary scum like the rest of us only difference is that they talk about buddhism which a shit load of them do not practise for real. If some of these guys do good ofcourse I respect it. And anyone helping others etc is doing something respectable- but I do that too, allmost everyday it does not make me a buddhist at all. I think these jokers should drop their claims on being monks and let serious buddhists take over shaolin and revive shaolin chan. They can still help people and do all their noble stuff without being monks. Songshan monk- do you understand what I mean? Arhat- what say you? Would it change anything for you? Would you not continue to study buddhism and gong fu anyway?
            /Secret qi gong master of Stockholm shaolin temple Shi Yan-LU

            Comment


            • Originally posted by LFJ
              have a look around this link on the monastic community: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/budd.../monastics.htm

              and chicken, some pictures of chinese robes here: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/budd...obes_china.htm

              as you can see, chinese monastics of all traditions wear the same robes.
              LFJ, thanks for digging these out. I should probably have been more specific. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, only these are monk robes and they are not orange warriors suits. I meant I don't know any other order of monks that wears the orange warrior suits.

              Chicken

              Comment


              • which are you exactly referring to then? any photos? these robes are the same cut. they can be at various lengths and colors but are the same robes. they are worn by chinese monastics in temples throughout the world.

                Comment


                • a warrior suit

                  one of these...
                  Attached Files

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                  • i just see that it is a stylized fashion now. it has no sleeves. at the usast they have 3/4 sleeve robes. but it is still the same cut as the full robes. if you're talking about the one sleeve robes, thats old tradition.

                    all buddhist sutras that have someone coming to question the buddha starts off with them uncovering their right shoulder, kneeling on one knee, and bringing their palms together- which is the formal way to make requests or question about dharma to the buddha, or when in the presence of a senior monk. but nowadays, the robes in shaolin are sometimes made to only have one sleeve all the time. thats forgetting the reason for it and just wearing it as fashion. a manly warrior gongfu thing. show your muscle. its even done by lay people.

                    if its the over-socks and shoes you're talking about like in the picture, most often it is worn by all chinese monastics as well. although the colors usually match the color of the robe, and they dont often have the wraps keeping it tight. but the socks and shoes are exactly the same. its part of the chinese monastic robes.

                    but again, all of these are from chinese buddhist monastic traditions. they are just used as fashion by the shaolin, even lay people are wearing them forgetting about respect to the ordained and the robes reserved for them as renunciates.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Iron Cross
                      So the ends justify the means? I'm sorry I just don't agree with that kind of thinking here... I think what they do is not only relevant to what they offer but related. Just out of curiosity do you have a limit to someones action before you would stop following or listening to them? would it be murder, rape, fraud, corruption or something other thing?

                      Sorry I just find it somewhat odd and rather pathetic that you can say with a straight face you dont care if the people you idolize are in fact horrible people just because they talk philosophy with you...

                      Guess you can play the ends justify the means game all day long with history... rarely does it ever justify it in the end...
                      Idolize? Worship? Don't be absurd. Horrible? How did we come this? because they are martial monks? Teach Shaolin? Continue on the tradition? Lead normal lives instead of your movie expectated ones? Drive a car? Operate a school as a business so they can earn some type of income? Strange, I don't ever remember Shi Xing Hao teaching philosophy to anyone. As a matter of fact I can tell you that there has been several times Xing Hao told me not to pay for the month because of assistance I gave him with the school. That doesn't sound like a "hustler" to me as you are claiming.....and thats in a totally different league than murderers, rapists, fraudulent people so your 100 %. mistaken. There are hundreds of corrupted, fraudulent, hustler criminals every day in society. Real ones. The ones that steal your property, commit robberies and burglaries. Why have you not led your crusade against them? Or do you specialize in just shaolin? I think there is just so much more to you and your story than what you are trying to let people believe. Try something else. So what's next in your crusade?
                      http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by master-lu
                        Can I really be too consumed with what a person does? What does a hustler have to offer me? I think the only thing they are carrying on is the now tarnished shaolin name and perhaps some gong fu. You can't ask me to ignore their doings- I am not saying htat they are all evil, just that most of them are ordinary scum like the rest of us only difference is that they talk about buddhism which a shit load of them do not practise for real. If some of these guys do good ofcourse I respect it. And anyone helping others etc is doing something respectable- but I do that too, allmost everyday it does not make me a buddhist at all. I think these jokers should drop their claims on being monks and let serious buddhists take over shaolin and revive shaolin chan. They can still help people and do all their noble stuff without being monks. Songshan monk- do you understand what I mean? Arhat- what say you? Would it change anything for you? Would you not continue to study buddhism and gong fu anyway?
                        /Secret qi gong master of Stockholm shaolin temple Shi Yan-LU
                        Yes you can be too consumed with what a peson does. It's a political trick. If you can't win a losing election what do you see most politicians do to each other? Attack the individial's character to the point of mud slinging and gossip results. They try to pick details of someone's life to bring out so it can stir up contraversy, gossip and rumors. This is exactly what's going on here with the whole "monk issue". Have you not seen other martial art schools that use the name "shaolin" behind it and have absolutely no shaolin spirit, traditon or lineage? Sounds like they are the real frauds ripping people off but hey so long as they don't declare themselves buddhist martial monks it's okay, right? How many shaolin schools have you been to, to prove your theory? Lets stop dancing around the issue and be specific. Which schools? Which monks are not evil as you claim there are some good ones? I think you are using the proverbial scape goat phrase "I am not saying all but most are evil". No Master lu it's too late for that. You are playing on both sides of the fence and it doesnt work that way.

                        If you declare yourself buddhist and you do things that are respectable and help others than I would say yes that's part of buddhism and part of what you commit your life too. Whether you consider Buddhism to be a religion or philosphy you incorporate its very principles and teachings into your every day life. All religion does. Its a way of living. As I posted before the emphasis on shaolin is geared more towards kung fu not it being a prestigious buddhist monastery. Go to Tibet for that. Let serious buddhists take over shaolin? Explain what you think a serious buddhist is.
                        http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

                        Comment


                        • I actually earned my degree in attacking shaolin...

                          But your right there are plenty of realworld scum out there too... and plenty of people the run a business and make money off their crafts... they just dont go around claiming to be monks... Most of the other "monks" i see of other faiths lead rather humble and poor lives... I've been to a few other monastaries, rather interesting experience...
                          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                          Comment


                          • Well I think Iron cross started it right. I'll add that ofcourse I think that those other schools you're talking about are even bigger frauds and that they are hustlers too. That is not the issue here though- we are talking about shaolin. I don't have to complain about all the hustlers in the world. There being worse hustlers out there does not make the shaolin hustlers any less of a hustler in any case. Does it? Our view of monks is simple live as one if you claim you are one- has nothing to do with the movies, you know that. I don't by the crap they are trying to sell, the perfomers are cirkus artists, shaolin has become a cirkus full of performers who perform amazing tricks how shaolin is that? I dont by the concept of being monk but not living like one att all- If you live like an ordinary person, well most likely you are one and you're better of being honest about it- you can still get many lovely friends- can't you? I have heard of two monks that are considerd buddhist by others around china and the world. Shi de yang and shi de jian, they practice and develop chan, traditional shaolin medicine and gong fu, these are the three treasures of shaolin. Of course there are more of them but they ceep a very low profile in hustlerabbot yong xins shaolin. And they are buddhists not driven by interest in fame and fortune like the others. These we don't hear much about. We only see and hear about the flashy cirkus monkey monks with their bullshit. They wear their shaolin clothes and shave their heads wich relievs them of any responsibility for their behavior and actions. Shaolin fundamentalists like Arhat defend them and worship them what ever they do, why so desperate to worship a shaolin monk? Living as a monk is not some unattainable thing as you seem to believe. You say if they ar not monks who are? What a silly question, the world is full of buddhist monks and other monks and they all have a lot in common that I know even if I havent lived in china like you have to to know anything according to our funny friend chicken who believs that Monk to chinese peoplecould be anyone or anykind of person no matter how he lives or what he does- and hey he takes his referrence from living with them! Lord have mercy
                            Songshan monk do you understand what i mean by all this?

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                            • Oh forgot. Have you an answer to my previous questions about still traning even if they dropped the shaolin stuff about still doing you're positive things etc?

                              Comment


                              • LFJ

                                that is a full long sleeved orange warrior suit, they have a technique of wearing them one armed, for the reasons you describe. He doesn't have any like that which are vests. If the warriors are gonna wear vests they wear the luohan vests.

                                All I'm trying to get to the bottom of is if non-shaolin monks wear the bright orange suits. I have seen no evidence that suggests that they do. Hence I think its misleading to suggest that the orange robes are anything other than the Shaolin's military uniform / fighting uniform.

                                I mean the mere fact that it is bright orange is meant to intimidate in open warfare... if they are engaged in subterfuge activities, the don't wear orange, but the design of the suit is the same and I think it has stayed more or less the same for generations.

                                Therefore if someone who is not a Warrior is wearing them, then its equivalent to them walking round in Army surplus / combat / military fatigue fashion. Hence I don't see a problem with it. Its just a fighting uniform, that is so hip, folks like to wear it as a statement.

                                I'm completely familiar with monk robes, worn throughout South-East Asia & China... they are quite different to orange warrior suits, which until I see evidence to the contrary I propose are unique to the Shaolin.

                                Regards

                                Chicken
                                Last edited by Chicken; 03-18-2007, 05:23 AM.

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