Authenticity of monks

[SongshanMonk]

Interesting SSM.

The use of the term "monk", has apparently been bastardized, hasn't it? Herein lies the other problem.

depends on which side of the window you are looking through.


I look at the term "monk" very loosely. Can there be a division within this term? I would say yes...why cant there bet? Yes, wuseng would have to fall under some type of category so naturally they are considered "monks". Religious monks? No...not to say the least even though they study buddhism. The best way I can describe this is like referring to the word "cops".....even though there are police, sheriff's, constables, etc but they are all categorized as "cops".

As with anything else, yes there are going to be some rotten apples in the barrel. I really think a lot of people are trying to put too much into what they think a monk is and what it is. Would all this even be an issue if they were called something else or is it because they are called "monks"? We live in a different time and age. The monks that are here are teaching kung fu not campaigning to be the next dali lama or writing books about buddhist scriptures.

[LFJ]

rather than saying they arent religious, it would be more correct to say they are not fully ordained.

there is no such thing as a "non-religious monk" anyhow.

[doc]

there is no such thing as a "non-religious monk" anyhow.

That was exactly my point, which, I think, was missed.

I just thought it was interesting, how those exposed to these "Shaolin monks" have had the definition of "monk" altered for them.

But, it's only a word. Just brought it up for, well, I'm not sure why I brought it up. Just found it comical. Guess I'm too damn tired from all this traveling. Hell, there are more important things in life to be concerned with.

Like, The Osmonds. Donny Osmond just announced he's bringing the family together to sing again. Now there's something to lose sleep over.

[LFJ]

Hell, there are more important things in life to be concerned with.

ain't that the truth! i just came back from an appreciation of nations show at the uni. one african guy did a reggae show.

now i'm jammin' out to this stuff: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XkJV3RClAGU

[master-lu]

so it would be a wonderful contribution to the internet and to all people so shaolin traditional culture will be known. there are many who dont understand shaolin and so engage in insulting debates which damages the reputation of shaolin. or they simply see shaolin as a joke. (the majority of the buddhist world, i'd say)
- And why is that? Because mostly and sadly they are a joke.

if this information is made known, then shaolin traditional culture will be more understood and the respect will be upheld.
-No. This alone will not be enough. People in shaolin must live it, too few of them do nowadays and so they are considered a joke. Lots of people know that there is more to shaolin, that there is real shaolin culture and reading about it is great but if no one practises it except a very small number it will still not uphold any respect for shaolin only respect for its past glory. THis is the problem. They should get rid of the entire cirkus industry and all the cirkus monks and get serious about living and practising traditional shaolin culture within the temple as a small number of monks do- let them take over, people like Shi Dejian are the right ones to run shaolin. They can move the cirkus somewhere else. And serious buddhists can get back to shaolin then there will be a change in attitudes toward shaolin for the better!!!
Songshan monk- A monk is a monk and lives like one! If you live like I do- you are not a monk! As for the different "cops" to be a cop- you must uphold and inforce the law- if you get caught not enforcing the law and not obeying the law- you are no longer allowed to be a "cop" and you're in trouble with the law instead. Same for the different monks. Hard to understand is it? Wrong is it? No way I know that not even you would say that!
/secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi Yan-LU

[SongshanMonk]

rather than saying they arent religious, it would be more correct to say they are not fully ordained.

Well....I didn't say "non-religious monks". I was trying to refer to my previous points about the wuseng not being considered a "fully ordained monk". I have been trying to get that point across in some of my previous posts but that was missed as well and doesn't satisfy the critics.

That was exactly my point, which, I think, was missed.

I just thought it was interesting, how those exposed to these "Shaolin monks" have had the definition of "monk" altered for them.

Doc, you have been exposed to the shaolin monks just as much if not more than us. What do you honestly believe now? What did you believe then?

A monk is a monk and lives like one! If you live like I do- you are not a monk! As for the different "cops" to be a cop- you must uphold and inforce the law- if you get caught not enforcing the law and not obeying the law- you are no longer allowed to be a "cop" and you're in trouble with the law instead. Same for the different monks. Hard to understand is it? Wrong is it? No way I know that not even you would say that!

Yep, you kind of have it wrong. I have seen some questionable things done "in the name of justice". The average person thinks like you do about police....but the truth of the matter some patrol officers or guys in vice/narcotics don't necessary follow the same strict principles. I have seen some officers dance around in the gray area of the law to make their case or the arrest. What they have done was not classic textbook law written in black and white...but their actions were not illegal either. I see the whole "great monk debate" in a similar way. The wuseng are in the gray area. Is a wuseng "real" for running a business, drinking a beer, or perhaps raising a family? You have often said a monk is a monk and lives like one. Yes this rings true for fully ordained monks living in a monestary. We are talking about wuseng here.

Masterlu the problem is the answers, definitions and the things we perceive as being "right" are not as clear cut as most people think they should be. As with this monk issue the average person in their minds comes up with their own definition of what a monk is and should behave. In your terms nothing else is acceptable. The wuseng, I believe, make up 90 percent if not more of Shaolin. I can sit here and tell you that a wuseng is "not a fully ordained religious monk" or that he hasn't taken the full precepts of monkhood but that still isn't good enough of for you. As I said again previously, if it's not the real vs fake monk issue then its "they are all hustlers". Wash rinse and repeat. I really don't care to get into the topic again because here we are at 20 pages later and no one else thinks different.

[Iron Cross]

I see so all these guys are "Not fully ordained monks". So then I guess they should all now refer to themselves not as Shaolin Monks, but instead "Authentic Not fully Ordained Shaolin Monk"

[doc]

Doc, you have been exposed to the shaolin monks just as much if not more than us. What do you honestly believe now? What did you believe then?

There are Buddhist monks that now live in Shaolin. Yongxin, to his credit, moved the performers out. Gong fu performances now take place in the wushu guan performance hall, a Las Vegas type venue if I ever saw one.

There is no training in Shaolin anymore.

You have guys like Deyang, who are from the "old school". They've lived in the temple, with the older generation monks, who seemed to have incorporated Buddhist / martial ways concurrently. The older generation guys are mostly, if not all, gone. Some of these younger guys, such as Deyang and some of his generation, have continued that ability to incorporate both lives, because of the people that they've learned from.

The younger generation guys are not learning from the old school types (who are gone). Their focus is on gong fu, performances, etc. Some may pick up a little Buddhism here and there, but some don't have the slightest idea about that religion. Maybe most. You have to remember that these young guys did not grow up in the temple proper, surrounded by monks with Buddhist ideals and culture.They grew up in schools, surrounded by other students, all learning gong fu. Even the idiot I brought over had virtually no understanding of Buddhist concepts; surprising because his master has some, to some degree.

You know, this wuseng versus Buddhist monk stuff I think has gotten exagerated over the past ten years or more. In my opinion, I think it has become an excuse, propagated by supporters of these younger guys, to make them into what they're not. "He knows nothing about Buddhism, but he's a monk because he's wuseng; he doesn't need to be religious, he's a martial monk". Amazing the nonsense that is floating around, on the internet, and even on television. Does anyone really believe, that in times of yore, they actually separated the two groups?? That the martial monks had nothing to do with Buddhism, and the Buddhist monks had nothing to do with defense? Think about that for a while.

Then you have guys who were simply performers in the wushu guan (some for as little as two months before they defected) who have come over with the "shaolin monk" moniker, and have discovered the marketability of the name. Their lifestyle certainly doesn't come close to matching the lifestyle and ideals of monks found in Shaolin. But they hide under the "wuseng" monker, altering that definition to fit what they do. This is what causes all the current confusion. And with China being what it is, you can't exactly go and look for records to prove, or disprove, anyone's claims. Yes, you're a cop, and I can research and prove (or disprove) it. Same for me as a physician. Good luck doing that with any of these guys. And trust me, their inclusion in a Shaolin picture book means nothing. I have European friends who have been in those books.

But, you can't condemn everyone who claims to be a "wuseng", regardless of what definition you use of that term. I've met some Shaolin students, who have grown up in the wushu guan as performers, with absolutely no Buddhist training whatsoever, who have evolved into individuals with lifestyles and ideals approaching that of monks who live in Shaolin proper. They are out there. Just as you really can't say that some of these guys are "monks" because they're "wuseng", doesn't mean that you can state that these "wuseng" have no understanding of Buddhist ideals either. There are always exceptions, in both directions.

[SongshanMonk]

Doc, a lot of what you said makes sense. I think for the most part everyone here would agree in the state shaolin is in today. In the times of yore no, I dont believe the two were separated (buddhism and the buddhist lifestyle). However, I do believe now we live in different times with a different genration running around out there. I feel now there is a distinct "two path route" with shaolin. On one hand you have the new generation with the emphasis on kung fu and less buddhism and on the other hand you have the few with more emphasis on buddhism balanced with kung fu. My opinion is that Shaolin today is geared towards kung fu more than Buddhism....where now the monk tours are a common thing to see these days and monks are considered "performers". I think most of the "wuseng monks" living around DengFeng or shaolin are under a strict principles and a watchful eye. They are more likely to be dispelled, ran off or given a bad reputation for being at the core rather than say the monk who leaves shaolin and immigrates to another country. This is not to say that monks/students do not misbehave at shaolin. I am sure there are problems/issues over there we just don't hear about. So what's the problem?

The main problem is clarity. The monks that identify themselves as wuseng have gone uncontested for years. Even uncontested from shaolin. This is in spite of some of the lifestyles "wuseng" have lived and that have been exposed or even open about. Is it wrong or un buddhist like for a "monk" who has lived and trained in DengFeng, leave an open his or her school entitled "shaolin kung fu"? Is it wrong because now this monk has to make a living for himself and earn his keep? Of course, it is easy for someone to say "a monk is a monk and lives like one". Li peng is one of the few anymore that do not catch a lot of criticism. Why? because he doesn't identify himself as a "monk"... even though he still shaves his head, wears robes and teaches "shaolin kung fu". That is not any different from what the other monks are doing except the other monks still use their disciple name and are called "monks". That's why I believe there is too much debate about wuseng. A title is just a title. I think you would have to look at the monks experience and training to determine if he is say any less real or fake. People love gossip and they love rumors. A lot of so called critics just become too obsessed in the lives of some of the monks. God forbid if a monk takes a bite out of a hamburger or drives a car....or decides to have a family. Other religions have accepted this and for some reason I cannot think of a valid reason why buddhism wouldn't either and make a wuseng strip himself of that title.

[doc]

The monks that identify themselves as wuseng have gone uncontested for years. Even uncontested from shaolin.

Have you ever thought that the keepers of Shaolin really don't care what these guys do? Nor does Shaolin have any control over them; they don't originally belong to Shaolin (except Guolin), so, Shaolin can't do anything with them.

Herein lies the other problem. The connectivity that everyone thinks exists, does not exist in some cases.

Again, any student from any school, gets to wear orange robes with a "shi" name and go on tour, if they're good enough. Leave them in another country, and they become some idolized Shaolin temple monk. This is the current state of affairs.

[Chicken]

Doc, can't say I disagree with you.

However I interpret it differently... you talk about connectedness, and I don't believe that it has changed at all.

There were always 500 of them... what's the number, 147, that's one hundred and forty-seven people that the group psychologists have worked out that people can manage before hedgemony collapses, in absence of a second layer. And Yongxin has a second layer... that's the point it is all connected if you report up to one of his disciples. You don't want them so connected that you have to account for them all the time, but, you want them connected enough so that when you have to call on them they come.

One of the ways of doing this is by making them part of a brotheren. Surely yes, when the call goes out 1,500 turn up, and they pic out the real warriors. And no doubt, every time this happens, some regularly make the cut, others drop out, some newbies drop in. But the reality is, that this wasn't going on every generation, most generations they were just like they are now; a bunch of soldiers, hopefully properly managed, but rarely so, forever perenially getting ready to go to war. Only its never like this. And I've no doubt these debates have been circling for millenia, as to where they are at and whether they are real 'warriors' or not, and until they are called to war, well, I doubt we will ever know, and I am quite certian.... we will never know. Because they last time they went to war was the Boxer Rebellion, and until someone gives them guns training, they ain't gonna get called up.

Still what we are observing here is when one of the "disciples" fails to make the cut. And this is where it all gets a bit sticky, because, well Guolin has one suicide against him and an number of renegade backers. But there's far worse skeletons in the cupboard in the rest of the disciples, only they haven't yet come to light in such spectacular media fashion. It just so happens that Guolin wasn't just any old sentinel, but the chosen one... and that's why this is sooooo politically hot.

Guolin as I understand it never had a school back in Dengfeng... so when it came to bringing out people he had to rely on other disciple's students. Its a pity he subsequently went a poaching.

So my call at the moment is, well I don't think that we are at the worst of it... and I don't think that we are at the best of it, they've been through a dynasty change and its still in living memory. Of course as a group they haven't regrouped and got their ducks lined up.

But boy its gonna be fun watching them do that in the next 20-30 years.

Chicken

[arhat]

thank you, doc!

actually i'm talking to the person who gave me this information who is a monk in china from baimasi, currently at fengxuesi, in henan. we will try to write an article on the levels and precepts within shaolin (where he was also accepted) along with historical details and such.

i told him this information is simply not available online where there are many people who want to learn from a distance. and even many shaolin sujiadizi that i know do not even know this information.

so it would be a wonderful contribution to the internet and to all people so shaolin traditional culture will be known. there are many who dont understand shaolin and so engage in insulting debates which damages the reputation of shaolin. or they simply see shaolin as a joke. (the majority of the buddhist world, i'd say)

if this information is made known, then shaolin traditional culture will be more understood and the respect will be upheld.

when it comes to the "real or fake" debate we can have some place to look at this problem. and understand the tradition and who is or isnt upholding it.

i think it would be good for all and especially shaolin traditional culture. it may take some time but we'll put something together to have published online.

from what I have heard beimasi is a worse tourist trap than shaolin.

second hand info but what the hell what else are forums for but to throw out some corn and see what fowls come to peck.

so how will this be cross referenced? amazing to see a monk from baimasi must be consulted re: Shaolin. Jews have interesting views on Christians, I suspect, as well. Let us concoct a treatise using this polemic next. Just for shits and giggles lets get an Lubavitcher to take a look at Reform!

I'd say the first roadblock shaolin has to being "accepted" by the "buddhist world" is the fact they train martial arts...but since that is not a juicy hang up...

[LFJ]

arhat-

this guy was originally ordained at baimasi, as i said, but was later accepted as a monk in shaolinsi. he's now studying with the abbot of fengxuesi. actually, his master there has sent him around china to learn more about buddhism, as many chinese monks do. so i'd say he has a better understanding of the differences and inner workings (at least ordinations) of other chinese buddhist monasteries as well as shaolin being ordained as a monk in them. such as baimasi and shaolinsi.

a better understanding than those who even have an inner understanding of one side of the story. or those who like to think they do. such as sujiadizi who dont know what precepts their masters have taken. otherwise shifu's respect can still be upheld by clearing up his ordination rather than giving vague references to the cultural revolution which was before his time and doesnt change what precepts he has taken now. or other aspects which the rest of us just dont understand.

one could only assume you dont even know the details of your own shifu's ordination. otherwise this information wouldnt be kept in as you condescendingly tell people off while your shifu is still being bashed on here.

you could say, hey let up, he's a wuseng. he has only taken the five lay precepts. he can have kids, eat meat, and drink all he wants..... if you knew that.

or if his ordination is something different. its still not known. and you're not protecting that or standing very strongly behind your shifu. (if infact you know about it)

all i hear from you is "there was a thing called the CR" or "one day you'll find out" or other equally meaningless and condescending points, as it clears nothing up whatsoever.

it seems you think your shifu has been ordained with the pratimoksha precepts like a heshang (as he's always wanting to translate everywhere) but doesnt accept it and so does his own thing but is still a monk. which means you dont know what precepts he has taken, what that might entail (expulsion), or even the level of his ordination.

so i really find it rather useless to hear your responses (even as a sujiadizi) as no point is put across, they're often condescending, you seem to know less than you'd like to think, and you dont do that great a job defending your shifu. all it would take is saying he's a wuseng, he has been ordained with the five lay precepts. end of argument.

that is only on this specific topic, by the way. i still respect your loyalty and knowledge. but i think knowledge of the significant aspects would give strength to your loyalty and help you defend your shifu better. which you try to do, but get no point across at all. simply because you lack the knowledge of your shifu's ordination. (as i see from your responses) if this is not the case, then you simply dont want to share it and allow your shifu to be bashed left and right.

not saying i know anything more. but i'm the type of person that if i dont know something, i'll tell you i dont know. but i promise you i'll work on it until i find the answer. and when i find that answer, or if i already have an answer, i'll put it out there.

no need for vague references and condescending remarks that help nothing. i want to put questions and answers out there that help us all move up on our understanding of traditional shaolin culture so that it will be understood, respected and continue into the future.

that takes proactivity. if you have the knowledge, dont sit back with it and laugh at everyone else trying to learn what you know. if you dont have the knowledge, dont try and fake it- go find it. period.

[baiwanxi]

as far as Baimasi being a tourist trap, it's not. You pay 30 yuan, as opposed to the 100 to get into Shaolin. When I was there the door man was a monk. Inside the temple I saw no grounds keepers, only monks. Monks sweeping, chatting, and praying. The grounds there are large, but there is not so much to see. A Temple area, pagoda, a couple ponds and gardens, but nothing too extravagant. Nothing that would make it any more of a tourist trap than any other popular Buddhist temple in China.

Outside the temple, leading up to the enterance, there is a long corridor of shops selling Buddhist paraphernalia. But that is also no uncommon among popular Buddhist temples in China.

However, in Shaolin I had people attempting to persuade me to pay to look at Damo's cave. Monks inside the temple itself wanted me to pay to have a bell rung for me as I offered incense. People attempted to persuade me to take a trek into the mountains. After I had lost my enterance ticket I had to pay an aditional 20 yuan to enter the Wushuguan. I was told a show had just started (encouragement to pay the 20 yuan), but when I got inside I found that a show had just ended and that the next show wasn't for another 3 hours. Then when insede the Wushuguan I came upon a statue of Damo and was encouraged to make an offering by a couple monks. I did so and dropped 5 yuan in the offering box. After this I was told by one of the monks that if I made a larger offering I could recieve a golden card. Much like the card offered at any temple store in China. So I did. I dropped 100 yuan in the box. After he finished filling out the certificate that went along with my card he told me I must pay an additional 200 yuan. I told him "no" and began to walk away and a big fuss ensued. Not wishing to make a scene inside the Shaolin grounds with a Shaolin monk, I just paid the money and took my card. The same gard costs 30 to 60 yuan in the Shaolin village just 3/4 of a mile walk from the Wushuguan.

And you heard Baimasi is a bigger tourist trap ? SHIT... The only place that IS a bigger tourist trap is maybe Diseny Land. But at least you won't have religious figures taking advantage of you there. Unless you consider a guy in an oversized Goofy suit a religious figure..... Who knows ?

[doc]

A monk in the wushu guan?

Those kids are the performance team.