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  • Monk authenticity

    Let me just make a correction. Shi Yanzi and Shi Yan Lei from London are NOT (I repeat), NOT shaolin monks. Shi Yanzi used to be a shaolin monk a long time ago, but is now only a disciple. Please be aware that not everyone with shaven heads and wearing orange shaolin robes are monks. Besides, there are 2 different types of shaolin monks within shaolin. There are monks who solely study the buddhist scriptures with no gong fu study and there are the "Wu Seng" (warrior monks) who study some buddhist scriptures but mostly do gong fu study. "Wu Seng" are protectors of shaolin and of the buddhist community within the shaolin temple walls.

    I just wanted to clarify this point as most people are misled regarding this information.

    Amituofo

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    • Re: Authenticity of the monks

      Just to clarify this subject, Shi Yanzi nor Shi Yanlei are NOT monks! Shi Yanzi used to be a monk but gave it up a long time ago in China. Shi Yanlei has never been a monk.

      There are 2 classes of "monks" within the Shaolin Temple. The first kind are monks who solely study the Buddhist scriptures and study no gong fu. The other kind are what are known as "Wu Seng". These are warrior monks and are defenders of the faith and of the temple. They do study some of the Buddhist scriptures but nothing to the level of what the other types of monks study it to. Wu Seng monks study gong fu mostly.

      In fact, it is very difficult to find a genuine or bone fide "shaolin monk". Real shaolin monks (not disciples or Wu Seng) are not permitted to touch certain things like money or be in contact with the opposite sex. I hope this clears up this confusion.

      Amituofo

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      • hengren, amituofo-

        i dont know much about yanzi and yanlei. i always read that yanlei was a disciple and not a wuseng, though. anyway, its not something i am personally conscerned with- as i have never been to london.

        but as far as your information on wuseng and wenseng. i just had a discussion on the topic with master shi deyang in the temple a few months ago.

        he said basically, no monk is allowed to study gongfu without a buddhist foundation. no matter what, they must study buddhism. however, they may study and train at the same time.

        and as far as buddhist study and gongfu practice goes (since they are really one and the same) any class of monk in shaolin may practice gongfu to various degrees, some choose not to at all. but it is absolutely necessary for them to study the buddhist scriptures and perform daily monastic practices- after all they are buddhist monks, whether wuseng or wenseng.

        the difference between the two classes are not in degrees of buddhist study and gongfu practice, but in their level of precepts which are rules concerning their lives beyond study and training.

        Comment


        • OK. So, if neither one of the guys just mentioned are monks any more, one being a former monk the other never being one ever, then why do they still use the names? That goes especially for the guy that never was a monk. Just seems a little too market oriented to me. Doubt highly they would be as well known if they were just Shifu (insert random chinese name) instead of Shi Yan xxx 34th generation shaolin warrior monk. I mean that title is so sexy...

          In terms of not being allowed to study martial arts without knowing buddhism. come on you serious? 99% of the guys that train at shaolin dont know dick about buddhism. Can you sit there with a straight face and say that all the people that practice martial arts and perform at shaolin have a strong understanding of buddhism and follow it? I mean seriously... come on...
          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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          • iron cross-

            you seem to have deleted your hard-drive and erased your memory. lol

            shouldnt you be familiar with this? sujiadizi receive dharma names just as wuseng and wenseng do. i thought you had one under shi yanming before, so you should be familiar. but unlike you, these guys have not left shaolin. yanlei was only a disciple and now apparently, according to hengren, yanzi is now only a disciple as well. since they are both still sujiadizi they use their dharma names for that reason. what about this is unacceptable? you're too quick to point out the marketing minds of these guys and forget the basics. they may use their dharma names if they are still sujiadizi- especially in shaolin contexts. (even if it is a marketing scheme)

            and its obviously guaranteed that many in shaolin train but dont know anything about buddhism. its an interesting phenomenon because while they train modern prc wushu and know nothing about buddhism-- chan nor otherwise, there are those new monks hired from pureland temples to cover the buddhist image (though not chan, but who knows the difference?) and know nothing about gongfu-- modern nor traditional.

            both groups are obviously not originally from shaolin and know nothing about the tradition. the tradition of which i share the words of shi deyang is the one he and others grew up with in shaolin. a real "chan-wu" tradition and not one thrown together using modern wushu guys and pureland monks for the full image of gongfu and buddhist integration in the temple- which is funny because only half of the guys know one respective half of this pseudo-tradition. and that genuine tradition of course has nothing to do with shi yongxin's new breed, but a yet largely under-disseminated heritage from the elder generations.

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            • I just find it interesting if you go to the main website it clearly states that Yan Zi is one of the 34th generation fighting monks.

              Hey lets all get shaolin dhama names... its the hip thing to do in the martial arts world. all you gotta do is find a chinese guy with a shaved head to say stuff in chinese and you repeat it. After that tis official folks your now a shaolin disciple.

              In regards to the one yan ming gave me. Well, i dont even think he ever officially became a monk. Wasnt he just a wushu team member? So, yeah the names he gave us really don't mean anything anyways. Especially since you could have train in shaolin martial arts for a grand totla of 2 weeks and be taken on as one of his "disciples". Kinda taints the whole ceremony in my eyes. Even yong Xin is doing the same with the USSD guys. Kinda the same boat if you think about it. Why should I believe anyone that anyone claiming to be a disciple of yong xin is any more shaolin than out of shape white dude that became yan mings disciple after 2 weeks training then promply quits after that????
              The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

              Comment


              • I knew Yanzi when he was back living at the wushu guan, and training on the performance team. He was very skilled back in those days (1997).

                I remember when he went to London. I also remember getting notification back then, (was it in the late 1990's?) of a child born out of wedlock. Well, I had been asked not to discuss it at that time, and, well, I didn't.

                Anyone know how his child is? Kid must be five or six years old. Did Yanzi ever get married?
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • Hey iron! Did i not tell all of you out there that you should get a shaolin name and title like my self and the rest of these hustlers and open up your own temple? LFJ could you really blame IC for being suspicious of their motives? They do really call thmselves these things in order to atract business. And Yanzi has a kid- let me guess the mother was a student of his???? Even if you don't want to comment on this doc- we allready know!
                  Im sorry i dont know what to say I just can't stop laughing!!!
                  I just love todays shaolin. Nothing but lies, commercialism, cheating, scandals etc.. it sure is Chinas own version of hollywood.
                  Secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi Yan LU

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                  • i don't really know why, but with this debate and doc's last thread about shaolin, i'm reminded of the "tell it like it is" show that used to be a popular television program in china. (i used this show as a part of one of my classes a while back.) basically the host opens by saying something to the extent that: 古代中國人有說實話的傳統。“不說實話,就辦不成大事,“不是有這麽一句話嗎?T hat is to say, ancient Chinese had a tradition of telling the truth. Isn't there an expression: "Those who don't tell the truth won't be able to handle large tasks?" mmmmmmmmmm....

                    boy, how times have changed....

                    so, doc, what generation shaolin monk are you exactly? we should definitely put that info on russbo's homepage...
                    ZhongwenMovies.com

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                    • iron cross-

                      i agree with you but the thing is you asked why they were still using the names, not the titles. and on yanlei's website he is called a "34th generation shaolin temple fighting disciple". lol, thats really playing it up more than what it is, but at the same time... its true.

                      also his website is "shifuyanlei". that should at least win some points in your book. and anyway, i dont think he ever referred to himself as a monk.

                      as for yanzi, i have no idea if he is or isnt a wuseng. although, if its true he gave it up long ago i'm guessing it must have been around 5 or 6 years ago. lol

                      Comment


                      • Well, if the teaching ability and skill is there then it shouldnt matter what one calls themselves. You could call your school Acme Martial Arts and you would do well simply because word would get around that its the best place in town. What I see all too often is the first thing these guys mention is their relation to shaolin this or that. That is overly emphasized over and over again.

                        In the end it doesnt even matter. What matters is, do you know what you claim to know, do you practice what it is your preeching, can you teach what you say you teach and is your skill as good as you boast it to be. If you answer yes to all of these it really shouldnt matter where your from should it?
                        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Iron Cross
                          What I see all too often is the first thing these guys mention is their relation to shaolin this or that. That is overly emphasized over and over again.
                          i agree its overly emphasized, but i cant call it unacceptable or wrong. its true, nonetheless.

                          What matters is, do you know what you claim to know, do you practice what it is your preeching, can you teach what you say you teach?
                          i agree here as well, but again i think explaining who they are and where they come from is part of stating what they claim to know, what they preech, and what they say they teach. its a basic introduction.

                          but right, it should be left as that, and not hyped-up so much unless they a) are interested in profit, or b) not that good.

                          (i havent seen too much hype about their relation to shaolin anyway- compared to many others.)

                          what they should hype-up instead though, is their ability to do and teach, and then show that if its true. thats the martial arts world. but not everyone plays in the martial arts world, some play in the business world.

                          but playing up something that is true is not nearly as bad as fabricating your whole persona. imo

                          Comment


                          • Maybe its good that these guys arnt over the top with the hype. Kudos to them. I mean some of the others out there are insane.

                            I guess I could also say that simply saying your from shaolin doesnt mean much anymore. For instance if I see a teacher that has just opened a new school and mentions every other minute that he was on the Beijing wushu team I know for a fact hes gotta be good as hell at the very least. I dont know about his teaching or anything but I know that to be on the Beijing Wushu A Team hes gota be good as shit. I dont even think it would bother me if said teacher plastered that info everywhere. I mean it might make him look like an arrogant jerk but it still speaks to the fact that at one point he had to be good as hell and probably knows some stuff.

                            The thing with shaolin is you dont have to be good at all. As mentioned any idiot can become a "Authentic disciple" for a roll of quarters these days. So to be boasting about being a Shaolin this or that really means nothing to me. If you want to convince me your a good martial artist then speak with your feet. And like I said if you just say you were on the Beijing Wushu A team well then nuff said. But if you just say I am a shaolin temple disciples. Ok who cares so is everyone else these days.
                            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                            Comment


                            • Doc
                              Anyone know how his child is? Kid must be five or six years old. Did Yanzi ever get married?
                              Hi Doc,

                              He was already married-estranged with a son when he arrived in the UK. He didn't divorce and fathered another child by a differnt woman.

                              Its not Shaolin to comment on someone else's situation, but if the support Yanzi has from Yongxin is anything to go by, his situation does not preclude him being a Wuseng, and all I know in Shaolin respect him as one.

                              They were all friendly and healthy last time we caught up with them 6 months ago.

                              Chicken
                              P.S. SHX and I have a baby due in Feb. Settling him back into the UK has been more testing and demanding than I ever expected, but things are getting back to happy days again.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chicken
                                Doc


                                He was already married-estranged with a son when he arrived in the UK. He didn't divorce and fathered another child by a different woman.
                                I hadn't realized that he had been married before he went to the UK. That's news to me. Didn't know he had a Chinese wife; I guess, from the situation, she must have stayed behind. Well, we've seen that before, haven't we. He brought his Chinese baby with him to the UK? Must have been difficult to do that, I know that the UK is not all that friendly to letting people in. I've been told that their immigration procedures, that is, prior to this EU stuff, were more strict than in the US.

                                For example, it is a common procedure in the US for a male to "stay" in the US via the whole "let's get married" bullshit. It was a cottage industry for a while; I knew of some men who sold themselves to Philippino and Japanese women as husbands for a few years, so that these wealthy women could reside in the US permanently. A woman just has to get pregnant and deliver a child in the US, making the child a citizen, and the mother a "resident". The govt won't seperate the mother from the child; nor will it seperate a father from a US born child. This tactic has been used extensively for men to stay in the US; as I've been told, some "monks", in an effort to thwart the immigration system, have been known to use this technique. The gov't is closing this loophole now also.

                                In the UK, it may have worked that way years ago, but it doesn't now. Being a father of a British citizen does not guarantee that the father will be able to reside in Britain. The baby has rights, the father does not. Not sure if this was different years ago, before the entrance into the EU messed up Britains immigration policies.

                                BTW, good luck to both of you with respect to the new arrival. Very happy to hear that. The best to both of you. One of these days I'm going to have to start thinking about little bald kids on the rugs. Shaving the dog's heads does nothing but piss off the Thai girlfriend.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


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