Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Authenticity of monks

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Huqiao i mentioned no huqiao. There are chinese people everywhere you know that. And what i said was that everyones opinion can differ. But you dont seem to have understood this- all chinese do not think like your neighbours. some european monks brewed bear but did not get drunk at parties, marry women and still claim to be monks- can you understand this? Its not about having one beer with your food which still the shaolin way does not allow. Your so called monks get married, party like hell etc etc etc thats what makes them ordinary people and not monks.

    Comment


    • #17
      So back to my original point Master-Lu. They are not claiming they are monks (heshang) they are claiming they are fighting monks (wusheng) and within the context of Wusheng, a status that only exists in Chinese, its perfectly accepted and probably even encouraged that they go out, party, drink alcohol and womanize.

      I think you will find that such behaviour is accepted the world over, as its one of the best elixer for warriors, period. Why else do you think invading armies go raping and pillaging? Often times (all be it moreso historically, than in present times) the powers directing the armies positively encourage it.

      You probably want to counter me with, "...but they don't engage in war anymore..." of course you are right, but its been part of their culture for generations, so why would they suddenly change it and say, well after all these years because a relatively few narrow-minded biggots in the western world, we'll neglect our complete history and give up our conjugal rights? I don't think so, they've got a much stronger collective sense of integrity than that.

      If you went there you might understand the difference, but you sit wherever with your Western thinking prejudicing them against what you think they should be, and in doing so miss the opportunity to perceive them as they are, and learn something.

      But by the sound of you Mister Darcy, sorry Master-Lu you'll never accept your prejudice as you are too much invested in your sense of pride.

      Chicken

      Comment


      • #18
        despite the fact that shaolin has a long and interesting, rebel monk tradition, the family thing can be directly attributed to the effects of the CR.

        when your monk master is married, and his sons are your generation gong fu brothers, and the lohan statues don't topple over as they pass by, the incense doesn't go out when they sit in front of the altars, nor do the sutras burn at their very touch, it kind of makes you realize that buddha made his rules up for individuals and other individuals forced him to blanket everyone with them. It makes you realize sometimes "isms" can intrude on the "ist", and to no real or genuine purpose but for the sake of say, controling property issues and inheritance of assets.

        buddha himself maintained his family, and if you think he put them away, well, that would make him an asshole and unworthy of emulation to begin with.

        damo also set precedent. the patriarchy almost went to a woman. I almost wish it had gone to her and not hui ke. I don't think China could have handled all the exploding heads. I wonder often if she herself thought it was ok that she had an extra 250 precepts beyond men. Obviously Damo took a giant crap all over that, and he is our founder. I like to think she understood them to be the bullshit they are.

        dharma eventually becomes self evident anyway, and "monk" is just an expedient term to best define what they are. probably why they chose he shang as their descriptor.

        I applaud anyone who works to eradicate celibacy in monastic or religious orders. It's unnatural, is only a hindrance or a help depending- just like other phenomena- and it's root causes of having been adopted are never what is presented. It's not because of any sacred ideal, it's because of a loss of control of community assets. What I mean is, imagine control of a sangha's resources passing to a non monastic son of a monk. Or a nun. Instant fuçkery.
        "Arhat, I am your father..."
        -the Dark Lord Cod

        Comment


        • #19
          I think the purpose of celibacy or a vow to not marry and take on a family stems from the origional purpose in seeking a religious life. That purpose being to devote oneself fully to their perspective religion and its teaching and not to have distractions or attachments to deal with.

          While I would never personally take up this type of lifestyle i do see where they are coming from. How can one say they are leading a monastic life if they are in fact leading a normal life?? Then everyone alive is by nature also leading a monastic life.. Thus a monastic life doesnt even exist and the very idea becomes meaningless... YOu wanna live a normal life then live a normal life.. just stop saying your living a monastic life at the same time...

          On a side note.. Rich... seriously we already talked about this a few times before... seems like everytime I or someone else beats the horse your riding on to death you just go get another one that looks exactly the same and come back shouting "Look at me I'm riding a horse"
          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

          Comment


          • #20
            with all due respect, you may think you're beating a horse, but you just keep making non points based off of other non points, and when someone like M-Lu is clearly in error, call me a glutton for punishment, call me an enabler of vows, I will post a few simple examples to show error. I suppose you would be more comfortable to see me ride the horse out of town and let you wallow in your pitiable self righteous crockery, but then that would only allow the lurkers and other readers to see one side present their view, God forbid someone has the sack to bother to type a 5 minute reply or engage in what could be an interesting discussion- the kind we used to have here before XW went off Doc's radar and you almost died. Maybe you should calm down and relax and take a break if it bothers you so much. LOL. Obviously I don't care how many times the subject comes up, it keeps coming up and it seems only obvious to me that people would benefit from having multiple perspectives, especially ones that can be based on church edicts, etc. And besides, like I said, there have been interesting points made in previous discussions on this forum, and I guess maybe I am hopeful some lurker will come out of the ether - a rather thin hope I'll admit- and offer up something interesting. Like anyone, I have the option to reply or not reply, read or not read, as I choose according to my interest at the moment, which you'll be glad to hear is flagging.

            celibacy in religious communities is generally adopted because of exactly what I described and you can look it up and find your own case studies. It never really had much to do with adopting the 'religious' lifestyle per se, except at individual and local levels, because religion generally deals with the ineffable and archetypal, and to deal with that you must deal with life- it's destruction and it's creation. The Catholic church provides the best example re: the adoption of celibacy. To this end there are even today many Catholic priests who do marry. Are they any less religious, or any less a priest because in your eyes they are more "normal," which is really just an ill defined, and rather arbitrarily so, perspective. Of course, someone such as yourself would render the opinion that yes, they are less religious. But you offer nothing to prove why such a conclusion is drawn, and inanely drawn at that, because these married priests are clearly NOT less religious nor less capable than their unmarried counterparts, so in a sense your opinion can be seen for the ignorant bullshit it is. Japanese abbots do not function as any less of an abbot than other non married counterparts. And in regards to buddhism, the dharma is obviously self manifesting and self evident, so it doesn't matter, especially not in Ch'an, because revelation is not predicated. That's why a woman almost gained the patriarchy.

            I have yet to see anywhere where you once managed to make a point against what I have posted re: Damo, the effects of the CR on the monastic condition, etc. Probably why I am still able to ride the same ol' Trigger despite your bleating on and on about the same shit. I don't see you offering anything to the "debate," and I use the term quite loosely, excpet your opinion, which I think has been noted ad nauseum, and like most others who beat this horse as you so eloquently put it, is made up of ironclad non sequitors. So thanks, it's amusing.

            I predict your next reply will be along the lines of, and this will get good, next thing I am sure you will tell me I need to "calm down" or "relax." That seems to be your classic rebuttal.
            Last edited by arhat; 02-25-2007, 08:30 PM.
            "Arhat, I am your father..."
            -the Dark Lord Cod

            Comment


            • #21
              Geez calm down and relax a bit.. If you were only more calm and relaxed you'd understand the calming nature of what relaxation means in a calming relaxing sense... I thought that would be obvious enough... I mean relax.. calm.. relax.. calm... relax..

              Actually I dont think I suggested anyone was any less or more holy based on their particular lifestyle... Think that one is all you buddy...

              I was meerly talking about the nature of the beast itself... You seem to always glaze over that one. Remember we killed this one in the monks with girlfriends thread... I think theres nothing wrong with marrying or having lady friends... In fact I'm quite fond of the ladies... Just dont go around saying your different from everyone else and lead this uber spiritual life when your just living a normal life anyone else might be...

              I guess i could ask you a question on this then.. What makes a monk a monk?? I mean the monks you talk about in teh chan lineage who marry and like a littel drinky drinky from time to time?? Because in that sense of the word they are just people like you or I... If you say its because they live their philosophy I could also say the same about anyone else alive today... Doctors, teachers, crack dealers, whoever... We are live our own life philosophies...You could say everything everyone does is an expression of their own life and philosophy...

              So, what is it exactly? that magic spark or thing that lets someone say they are a monk or can say they live a monastic lifestyle or a religious life or a spiritual life???

              But your right about something else topics do tend to come up again and again... I alsos ee no problem with talking about them... look how often i talk about my story ha... Im surprised you havent chimmed in on the new one thrown up titles "Shi yan ming???'' another ex-student that clearly didnt "get it" LOL
              The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

              Comment


              • #22
                just as predicted.
                "Arhat, I am your father..."
                -the Dark Lord Cod

                Comment


                • #23
                  YOu have no sense of humor do you....
                  The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    allow me to quote Doc:

                    Originally posted by doc
                    Yan Zhangs performers were hanging out at the temple today. I saw one of them smoking. I think I asked you something similar ages ago [about Shi Su Goong I think], (how) is it possible to achieve high levels of gong fu while adopting a habit like smoking. Especially after a longish period of time. Doesn't it really **** up your lungs and in turn your gong fu?

                    Thanks

                    P.S. How do you pronounce 'Zhang'?


                    The whole premise of smoking. I really hate that habit. But the appearance of "monks" smoking kind of makes us wonder. It doesn't fit the "perception" we all have. Then again, some people can't understand monks using cell phones either.

                    Two points here. Some of these performers might be just that. Performers. Students at the school. Coaches. And not monks. Not monks who have taken the vows under their master, at the temple. Remember, and we've talked about this before, lots of people get monk names, in fact, Shi Heng Jun's school gives all foreigners a monk name and makes them a "monk". Well, that's kind of nonsensical. And in some schools, all students get monk names, given to them by the monk headmaster. That doesn't make them monks. It may make them disciples, but it doesn't make them monks. At least by what I perceive as the definition, from my repeated journeys to Shaolin. So, more than likely, these performers are just that. Some of the better students. Some of the coaches. But not Shaolin wuseng.

                    Second point. So what? Shi Su Gang, Shaolin's greatest Chin Na master, smokes like a god damn fiend. Older guy, I've known him for a while. He's demonstrated to me a whole new chain smoking technique, one which I hadn't seen before. When his cigarette gets low, close to the filter, he rips the filter out, and plugs it onto the end of a new cigarette. I guess his body has figured out that all the nasty chemicals and nicotine kind of hang out in the but end of the cigarette; he's taking full advantage of what he can get. His skin reeks of nicotine now, far more than before. And his teeth are really rotting badly. How in hell he stays alive is beyond me. A mere mortal would have died years ago. Guess all his hard qi gong training has paid off. But, he was a monk, and, he still is. An old one, who doesn't teach or train in chin na no more, but still a monk. And what's the problem with that? Other than the fact that it's outside our perception of what a monk should look like. Well, he's made a choice, and he's stuck with it. And though, in our eyes, it's not exactly "monk like", it's still his option. Hell, it's his life.

                    Does it **** up your lungs? Your damn right it does. Even smoking for short term will reduce your exercise capacity. Long term will cause permanent irreversible damage. It's not something that any human with any sort of sense should be doing to themselves. The disease processes that are associated with smoking are innumerable. It's really amazing. Of all the thousands of people I've taken care of over the years of my career, I can honestly say that at least 80% of the adults had some sort of smoking related illness. Truly a nasty habit.

                    You pronounce Zhang "jang". Zh is generally pronounced like a "j", and "ang" is pronounced like the German word "angst". Zheng would be pronounced like "jung" (the ung part similar to the word "dung"). Zhong would be pronounced as "jong", with the "o" similar to it's usage in the word "ohm".
                    "Arhat, I am your father..."
                    -the Dark Lord Cod

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      You didnt answer my question...
                      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        lmao what a rich vein.

                        I always forget the implied rules when talking to you, only one person can ask questions. I notice you always try and rebutt points with questions. Besides being sloppy argument, shifting goal posts, questions are not rebuttals.

                        I've actually answered your question and then some. I once tried to explain to you about your "questioning," and why you were developing poor techniques regarding their crafting. You begin with your own answer, then ask questions to attempt to "prove" what is actiually your stated opinion and not a question at all, and often an uninformed one.

                        what makes you think there needs to be a static definition in the first place. so that you as an outisder can talk about it? lmao. That's something a lot of people can't quite get. It doesn't matter what you type out on your keyboard, it doesn't matter what you think, because none of that has any bearing or effect on the subject matter.

                        using your own example, you can put "doctor" in place of "monk" and draw the same conclusion that doctors have no right to use the term as a definition of what they are. I think you will be hard pressed for a Doctor to drop his title, because in some ways you can say helives his life just like everyone else does so what's the difference? it is invested with more meaning than you can strip away with non sequitors of comparisons, and you will see that people will have different sets of criteria upon which the definition you are trying to start from is based- which is valid and who is judge.

                        it's only conversationally material to the point- they don't even call themselves "monk" the translation is something else so to argue over an english word is hilarious. The only people I ever hear getting hung up on it beyond control are posters- often just kids- on internet forums who mostly lack any contextual experience to even begin to discuss the subject rationally or with conversational fluency regarding the subject matter.

                        If 90% or even 60% of what you want to define a person as is monkish what then with the rest. please by all means develop your own scale of categorization, introduce it, and see if it takes root and flies. I'd love to see you make the attempt and deal with all the inconsistencies. Maybe you could make a chart like, Cell Phone Using Monks/ Sneaker Wearing Monks- they are 70% monks. Then Meat Eating Monks- like the Dalai Lama, he's 75%.

                        This kind of understanding of course defies the reality that definitions are non static, adaptive, and evolve, and generally speaking are irrelevant to the group being categorized who have rights to define themselves- which leads me to my point that Shaolin is going through just such an adaption now, and some of it's roots can be seen in the CR and it's effects.
                        Last edited by arhat; 02-25-2007, 09:45 PM.
                        "Arhat, I am your father..."
                        -the Dark Lord Cod

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Nah dont think that applies to say a doctor.. because a garabge man couldnt repair a broken leg or conduct brain surgery... likewise a doctor might not be able to run a garbage compactor... Hell I know doctors that can barely run a dishwasher.. A doctor is a doctor because they studied specific medicine for years and practice their craft daily.. also it is a craft that not everyone can perform... if its something we can all do we dont name it and say we are all this thing... Like if I add a name to those people that can fill a cup with water and call them "Filwaters" its a moot designation because it defines something that is apready implied.

                          I wasnt asking a question as a rebuttle I am seriously asking a question.. Ive never heard it clearly defined.. Only get circular reasoning and attempts to dodge the question as you just did now.. if you answered it before then sorry I must have forgotten and would like you to tell me agian to clear up the confusion here...

                          If you already answered it clearly to me once before then simply repeating it in a few sentences should be no major task and Im surprised you didnt just do that in the first place instead of yelling at me for even asking a quesiton... but then again your from USAST yelling at those that ask questions is probably second nature

                          Also, if you want any clarificaiton on questions in the past you feel i may have not answered adequetly please tell me what so I can clarify my position and opinion...
                          peace
                          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I see, so you were not asking the question as a rebuttal, you were just ignoring the point in favor of asking a variant question. That's a clever and shifty means of debate, as I pointed out previously you are pretty good at.

                            For some reason you continue to fail to see that your method for attempting to establish a criterion for comparison as a starting point begs circular, general, responses because there are no concrete definitions, neither to what is considered "normal" agianst which you are comparing nor to what defines the term monk- in fact the term is showably stretchy to cover a broad range of people, even within groups. that's why I quoted the post from Doc about Su Gong, a monk who smokes, like a normal person he has an addiction and a habit. But for all intensive purposes, he is a monk, just like all the other monks who do things they should not do or do things that do not conform to your perception. also, he is oblivious to your need to define, and your definition, whatever it is, does not apply tohim only so much as you apply it. He continues being whatever it is that he is despite.

                            doctors are just normal people who have gone through a special set of circumstances which imbue them with a set of characteristics/skill sets that allow an outside person observing them to label conveniently and convey meaning to others. providing they conform to your set of doctor criteria, they are drs. if they deviate or overlap with your normal criteria suddenly they have no right to being referred to as a doctor? this is one reason why if you meet the buddha kill him was taught. meanwhile not all doctors conform to a concise standard applicable to the whole field of what people mean when they say oh he is a dr- some treat patients preventatively, some are into healing through butchery, these days more and more specialize in niche medecine, some treat patients with patience while some are assholes with shitty bedside manners. Some Drs are quite normal, 2 car garage, dog, 2 kids. Others are abnormal, slave to the grind, are idealists, work in Darfur, die poor. Some are blends of extremes. All are 'Doctors.'

                            lmao do you always mistake a reply to one of your posts for: being excited, the replyer needing to calm down, or c) yelling. do me a favor and get over yourself, change the pad, something. the last time you got me excited I actually believed the entirety of your abandoned to die story. I was yelling then all right, but as of late, I'm about as worked up as it takes to yawn.

                            lmao. Just so you know, yelling is typed in ALL CAPS, do us both a favor and stop reading into things to see what is not there. A reply is just a reply. It will save calories.
                            "Arhat, I am your father..."
                            -the Dark Lord Cod

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Rich seriously... you need to relax a bit and calm down... I can smell the smoke from your ears all the way from over here... Just breath a bit and relax... try calming down, taking a few breaths and relaxing... You'll find once relaxed and calm that calmness and relaxability is a far more relaxed calmness of relaxed calming relaxness...

                              You see the the 14th centruy English poet, John Relax, said it best... "A calming relaxing clamness of relaxing relaxitude, relaxes a clamness in each relaxing relaxness of calmy relaxability"
                              The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                seriously folks, he's here all night...he's got a million of these.
                                "Arhat, I am your father..."
                                -the Dark Lord Cod

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X