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  • #31
    Ladies can you believe I'm still single....
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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    • #32
      Shows twice on sundays...
      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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      • #33
        You are both need to stop getting at each other. I wish everyone here would just answer and ask question without getting personal. I guess it's human nature, but it sucks when you start to get somewhere with a point or a decent answer to a topic and then things fall apart because a cat fight breaks out and the rest of us have to read through the bullshit to try and find the pieces that still are still relevant.
        But I guess just from voicing my opion off the subject I'm just fanning the flame.
        Ahhhhh forget it. It's useless anyway.
        "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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        • #34
          Actually I think you just made the most sense out of anyone in the past few posts....
          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Iron Cross
            Ladies can you believe I'm still single....
            Actually, I'm the one that gets the most mileage out of that comment....
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

            (more comments in my User Profile)
            russbo.com


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            • #36
              I think this issue will never be solved, answered or laid to rest. There will be no final answer, no final stamp that will resolve any of this. Those who train Shaolin will train and follow that path, those that do not like it will continue to troll and flame the forums all over the net. Everything else in between is a difference of opinion.

              I am not going to sit here and say that I am the all knowing perfect shaolin student. I train in it, I like it, I find peace with it...it works for me. I will be the first to tell you that not all of the "monks" behavior are acceptable or mold the image of a monastery monk. It's quite the opposite. The "monks" are normal people and subjected to the trials and errors that life has to offer (be it betraying trust, marrying, raising a family, etc.). Nothing is ever perfect and we should all realize that by now.

              As far as the religious issue itself, it boils down to ones faith....and how they carry out their life to uphold those beliefs. Buddhism is kind of symbolic to monks/priests. There are millions of buddhists that are not monks. Ordinary peole living ordinary lives. Does that mean they are any less religious? The catholic church has priests with vows of poverty and celibacy but yet they have deacons that do give mass and have families.....does that make them any better off or worse faith wise? Does it mean if a monk drinks beer, gets married and raises a family he less of a person? Going to hell? No reincarnation? I think too many of you are focusing on the wrong issues.
              http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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              • #37
                Your missing the point and making it in the same post... YOu just said yourself monks are in essence normal people like the rest of us... so, they are normal people nothing special or significant to seperate them from anyone else in the world.. We are all on the same level... right???

                I asked this once before as a joke once but now I actually think it has merit as a question...

                If all monks are normal people are all normal people monks? why or why not?

                I would seriously like to hear peoples varied opinions on this...
                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                • #38
                  umm, I think you missed the point IC. "Normal" meaning we are all human beings created equal. We are all subjected to the various trials and errors that life throws are way.....regardless if you are a monk or not.

                  To answer your question, people are just people period. Titles are just titles. Titles don't make or break anyone and certainly do not make one better than the other. Doctors, lawyers, police officers, etc all have a code of "ethics" in their profession. The people employed in these fields are obviously held to a higher standard by the general population. Why? because they are supposed to be perfect? What's the first thing you see on the news when a public official made a mistake, was arrested, charged with a crime or what not? They are crucified on TV. In my opinion its all a circus act. The people who venture off in these professions are not perfect by far and yes there are some bad apples that slip through the cracks.

                  It's the same with the monk issue. Everyone here has a belief or standard in which a monk should "behave"....particulary a shaolin monk. Should a monk sip a beer, have a girlfriend, have children, then it's "OMG!! They are fake!! They are evil!! Call the moral police!!" A monk violates title 9 secton E of the buddhist precept code by drinking alcohol....holy shit ban him for life (sarcasm here for those of you too serious)!! The bottom line is that you will have to account for what you do in life. If you commit sin, break the laws, do the opposite of what people expect of you than you will have to answer for that. How you repent for those sins, if you do, is up to you and your faith. No one really knows the true you but yourself.

                  You reap what you sow
                  http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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                  • #39
                    Interesting... I can see some truth to what your saying.. Except in the medical field if you slip up you have the risk of getitng your license to practice revoked and then you are banned for life... Likewise in politics you can slipup and your chance of getting re-elected is about as likely as Segal winning an oscar...

                    I think the same can and should hold true to those who consider themselves religious or holy men... As you say everyone is equal in the sense we are all people and human with the good and bad that brings... From there we can be seperated into our given professions say.. doctors, lawyers, spiritual advisors and so on...

                    The doctor accidently drops his chewing gum into a patients brain during surgery... as a result the man can no longer add or subtract... This would cause him from being banned fomr medicine for the rest of his life...

                    A lawyer throws a case because he doesnt like his client... this would also cause him to be banned from being a lawyer...

                    A politicians sits on a committee for childrens saftey and is later caught in a massive child porn ring... He would never be elected to anything else again... Well, maybe this is the US after all...

                    A monk or priest preeches moralality and good natured things his whle life.. later caught doing things that are by his own definition not moral or un just should he be banned from being a priest again?

                    Seems like in the other examples provided there is a clear cut solution and definition but when you get into the religious area everyone makes everything blurry and nebulus on purpose to hide the inherent hypocrisies.

                    We are all equal; but I'm in charge
                    Speak your mind; except when its bad things about me

                    Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it to.. You want religious figures to be both normal everyday people we can all relate to and also above average enlightened demigods that have a way of doing thigns thats so profound simple mortals cant grasp it.... Whatever they do there is a hidden meaning..

                    If you said the same about the doctor, lawyer or politician you'd be laughed at and beaten... Yes yes the politician had sex with children but there is a plan here you cant understand so lets leave it at that... So the doctor removed the wrong half of his brain he is a doctor so we should trust in him no matter what happens... The lawyer has so much money already we msut assume hes not in it for the money anymore...
                    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                    • #40
                      As far as this Wuseng phenomenon goes, I think the best option would be to ask a monk himself. Not a monk with a world famous schools rep. to uphold (Yanming) but a everyday monk. I've met them here in China, I was just at the temple a week and a half ago, and shit, my two shifu's are everyday monks. Like you say, they're normal people like you and me. My head shifu is my same age, 27 and the other is 25. Both of 'em smoke, drink (not often), eat meat, and have girlfriends. They only shave their heads for a big performance. I asked them how they could have girlfriends and still consider themselves as Wuseng. They clamed they don't have sex. Otherwise it's OK.... Then I asked about the smoking. They said they really shouldn't but only because of health reasons. As far as Shaolin is concerned, it's not ! Smoking is a grey area, frowned upon maybe but not wrong. So the only thing I have to go on, as far as how they are different from you or me, is that they have spent a large portion or their lives learning Buddhist doctorine. When I asked if they are still Wuseng even though they do these things, don't have shaved heads and wear regular clothes (I am the only foreigner at my school so they have no reason to put on the monk show and wear the robe every day), they replied that they, and most Shaolin monks are not hardcore about their Buddhist practice, but hope to become more serious about it later in life.
                      Not to say that this is true for all the monks in China. I met a few other monks durring a recent travel, but the monks I met who do take Buddhism seriously were not from Shaolin. They did however wear the full monk dress, even in the middle of Shanghai, and rock the shaved head. The one I met in downtown Shanghai was only 20 years old too. The real deal.
                      So I don't know.... Will the Wuseng rep-ing for Shaolin, like Yanming or my two Shifu ever change their ways and turn back to more serious practice of their Buddhist doctorines ? I hope so, so I can go on believing that Shaolin is not just some commercial money making scheme. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
                      The bottom line is I really enjoy my instructors. Their knowlage of Shaolin Gongfu and skill in it is outstanding. So I want to learn from them. And, though I respect and have learned from Buddhism, I'm not a full out Buddhist and see no reason to lie to myself and pretend to be one to feel more Shaolin. Because of that, I don't care how dedicated my Shifu is as a Buddhist. I'm just happy to be able to learn what it is I came to learn, Shaolin Gongfu / Wushu and Sanda. Not some watered down bullshit with the name Shaolin tossed in there to get more students.
                      Of course, I live in a small town without a serious draw for Gongfu students so my masters have no need to put on a front. They have the luxury of being who they are, normal Chinese guys who live and studied in and around the temple and now teach and perform Shaolin Gongfu for a living.
                      If Yanming was my teacher and I saw him living like my Shifu live,,,, I might have a harder time writing that off as being acceptable.
                      "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by baiwanxi
                        Not a monk with a world famous schools rep. to uphold (Yanming) but a everyday monk.
                        Therein lies the root of the problem, LOL....
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #42
                          I love it!!! Notice, everyone, i created another shit storm!!!
                          Ceep your eyes pealed i'm going threw the other threads in search of the next opportunity to air my opinions and fire you all up.
                          One last thing- Iron cross i tottally agree with what you've been saying. You've been clear and simply about it while others kill themselves trying to come up with the most andvanced excuses to justify the behaviour of certain people. The effort some make defending certain so called monks's monkhood is almost scary.

                          To the believers -Why do you worship these men?

                          Speaking for my self i said they could still be good gong fu masters and good people even if they're not monks but thats not acceptable to some of you. I do believe Shaolin has some real monks. They uphold their traditions etc. How come shaolin monks behave like ordinary people and often worse, live like you and me and you still call them monks. Since defining the word is such an impossible task let's not. Therefor i am now a monk too and it feels great! I'm going to open a school and cheat young people for their money, have the female students massage me, hell i'll even have sex with them, like one of my old masters did! But i'll be smarter about it. I'll say that having sex is good for the chi! Its the highest level of chi gong only taught to special students! When ever i get an erection i'll say look- my chi is now below the dantian where it's supposed to be!!! By inserting my powerful rod of Chi i can pass some chi over to you too beloved student! Hahahahahahahahahahah
                          And nobody can say i'm not a monk! It can't be defined. Stupid westerners- Anyone can be a Shaolin monk, we do whatever we feel like- and if you try sayin anything about it you're narrow minded, ful of prejudice and know nothing of chinese culture. I'll tell the critics who don't understand, the chi transmitting process that is sex, that they need to go live in china to be able to understand that my behaviour does not make me less of a monk.
                          Hahahahahaaaaaa what a great idea!
                          Shaolin monkhood rocks!!!!!

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                          • #43
                            Worship them... ha too funny.

                            Also too funny that you can get an ego massage from folks here beating an already dead horse.

                            Good luck!

                            Chicken

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                            • #44
                              Ah come on now. Don't hate congratulate! I'm a shaolin monk now- you should come train in my school. I'll teach you my special chi gong if you're really good!

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                              • #45
                                Chicken and Arhat you should read the post about Yan ming by Jackwolf. Read it well and think about buddhism. You do agree that Shaolin temple is a buddhist temple don't you? What advanced excuses are you going to fabricate now? Chicken- you who have had the privilidge of living with them- Do you, with your profound knowledge gained from living with all the chinese people, consider Shi yan ming a Shaolin monk? Is he a real monk or is he the same type of monk as I am nowadays?
                                Arhat do you have an answer to this question? One that does not take ten minutes to read.

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