Have you ever used your kung fu in a real fight? Did it work? Please share

[LeiYunFat]

Lol, I understand...Good to see you're back.

[Chicken]

I`m not so sure about that.. I`ve seen guys who had been training for many years(in a safe, controlled environment) and when they got into a fight they just forgot everything.

You know when I first came accross Shaolin, I thought, well yes, I could learn the forms and skip the sanda. Some time in the course of the last two years, I realised that unless you train your real fight reflexes through fighting, you won't develop the reflexes or the intution.

If people train and skip engagement, I don't think you ever get a sense for intuitively being able to predict where the blows are coming, and if you can't do that you can't block them. So I think if you want to use Shaolin and probably some of the other Martial Arts for self-defense you have to spar.

Perhaps Michabusch, this is why your guys go to pieces in fights?

I don't train Martial Arts, but I do mimic it effectively to some degree, Hengxuan even shows of my kicks to his brothers. Hengxuan and I fool around / play fight... he enjoys testing out my reflexes and my ability to get through his defenses.

I have to be careful, because I hurt myself on his blocks if I use any real force, and because I'm less controlled. But what has become evident to both of us, is that all I have to do to block or avoid his attacks is keep eye contact with him. Somehow as long as I do I know where the blows are come from.

Of course he's not using any real force, but he is like lightning even when he's pulling his punches....

I've been in a few scraps in my life... with people trying to pick-pocket me and with bullies when I was a teenager... these situations make me see red, and I resorted to physical aggression through outrage. In all these situations, my pre-empting of the problem with physical aggression completely neutralised the situation. Leading me to conclude that pick-pockets and muggers in general are looking for easy targets as are bullies... you stand up to them / behave assertively and they go and find easier targets.

The last part of this is of course common knowledge, but its another thing, I think, to know this from experience. Which is what I'm trying to impart here.

Chicken

[LeiYunFat]

I think that training with an intent takes you much farther than just going through the motions, despite your dedication to it.

When I first started learning, all I practiced was the form and a three star block technique. While learning the form, I was told the combat applications behind the movements and practiced with the intent to fight using these techniques. The blocks appeared to have served the purpose to train my timing and structure. And although my "test" of these skills was not in a real fight setting, as I was just play fighting with my friends, I was able to apply the techniques with rudimentary effectiveness and timing. I was impressed, to say the least -- at how natural the movements felt and how accurate they were compared to the "real thing".

[michabusch]

I just mean that practising combat-techniques(how practical they may be) is not enough for a lot of people to deal with violence in a controlled way. They can probably still fight, but more out of instinct than from stuff they really learned. Like you said, you responded to these situations with rage and agression.
But I totally agree with you that training in a practical way like sanda can work on the mental part of an engagement(as well as more physical things like distance and timing)!

[Chicken]

You know Mischabusch, that is the point that I have been making in a number of threads.

Shaolin do not believe in control... in fact they believe in the opposite, that you enter a state of Chan so that you are not conscious of yourself (in control) when you are fighting... you just react on your instincts, albeit highly trained instincts.

This is why I maintain that Shaolin, who have physically & spiritually trained Gongfu, full-time, since they were children, will not engage in commercial fighting... as I suspect they cannot control what they are doing once they engage, hence they can't follow the rules of competitions other than the rules by which they fought back in Shaolin.

If my hunch is right then Shaolin probably will never accept a face off / invitation to fight competitively.... any that do aren't practising "Chaned-up Shaolin", and since a real Shaolin takes Chan very seriouslly, then if its fighting in a competition = probably not Shaolin.

Chicken

[zachsan]

Sorry, I have a hard time believing the "I won't fight you because I might not be able to stop myself from killing you" argument. Whatever you believe about altered states of consciousness, even in Chan tradition an empty mind isn't an unconscious mind. And it just doesn't make sense that someone could be a competent fighter whilst having no conscious control of their body; what you're describing sounds like a self-induced kung fu seizure.

Of course, people in the MA world have been known to believe in stranger things.

[LeiYunFat]

Yes, and using "I can't fight you because I'd kill you" excuse isn't a very good one when trying to rationalize Shaolin monks out of testing their skills in a situation like the ring. If anything, I think they should do it periodically just to legitimize themselves...but they'll never directly do it...the most you'll see is a fighter with a kung fu background like Cung Li, who doesn't directly represent shaolin.

[Chicken]

what you're describing sounds like a self-induced kung fu seizure.

Of course, people in the MA world have been known to believe in stranger things.

Its not a belief its an observation, Zachsan. If you don't believe it come to UK or Dengfeng this summer see it for yourself in Hengxuan.

The whole point of training gongfu was to strengthen the body for meditation so that the monks could achieve higher states of awareness and become more at one with their environment. So I think you grossly underestimate what is going on mentally when they are physically performing.

Its not an "I can't fight you because I'm afraid I'll kill you." defense. They are not supposed to kill... only trained to handle a situation. A situation in a ring is not life threatening, so they wouldn't take life.

Anyway, it only takes one serious injury inflicted by any Shaolin in a competition to see the end of their commercial earning capacity (other than being a thug). So it ain't going to happen.

Chicken

[zachsan]

Its not a belief its an observation, Zachsan.

Obviously, it's a belief based on an observation.

Suffice it to say that a Shaolin practitioner claiming this defense requires the audience to accept a series of dubious claims about his or her state of consciousness. Whereas the UFC guy's counter-argument (presumably something like "he knows he'll lose and that would be bad for business") only requires the audience to draw certain conclusions from things they see all the time, that is, said guy kicking ass, Shaolin guys making money without needing to prove they can kick ass, and most convincingly the fact that UFC guy is willing to fight while Shaolin guy is not.

I can't think of a reason the audience would favor Shaolin guy's argument over UFC guy's unless for some reason they're predisposed to believe Shaolin guy.

[Chicken]

yeah but they don't claim this defence.... in fact they don't claim any defence at all they just refuse to fight.

Anyone who's seen Hengxuan approach a kickbag, usually accepts that he won't fight competitively.

So what do you think I'm observing then in Hengxuan? I caught him doing it the other day, when nobody was around... so he's not putting on a show to impress, nor doing it so he can get out of competitive fighting... he just does it.

And yes, it does look like mental masturbation.

Chicken

[zachsan]

I don't know what you're observing, you haven't really described how it looks and I obviously haven't seen it myself. Unless it involved an MRI scan or some sort of telepathic communication, it's a fair bet to say you didn't know what was going on in his head, aside from taking his word for it. Who knows, maybe it was mental masturbation.

Anyway, I realize they don't use any defense at all, I was responding to your argument. It was easier to have Shaolin guy say it to get my point across. It doesn't really change what I'm saying.

As an aside, it's funny how this thread has gotten to the topic of UFC vs. Shaolin and the UFC vs. Shaolin thread has gotten to the topic of real fighting. Probably my fault in both cases.

[daodejing]

One time, while drunk, I used gongfu to win a fight where I was alone and facing two opponents.

I thought about all possibilities, outnumbered 2 to 1, If i lose i get hurt. If I win, i will probably have to significantly injure at least 1 opponent and scare the other one, or the much more difficult disable both opponents without injuring them.

So I said, "I'm sorry, I was aggravating a situation that didnt need to be aggravated. My name's Eric what's yours?"

I won because they wanted to get in a fight, and i wanted noone to get hurt. Noone got hurt, and they ended up buying me a beer. This is martial arts skill in practice.

Another time, when i was young and being bullied upon, my opponent kept throwing hooks, while i deflected with Wave Hands Like Clouds. I kept deflecting, opponent got angrier and angrier, throws an angry poorly aimed hook, I deflect it into the wall such that the pinky finger hits the wall first at a 20 to 30 degree angle, crumpling and turning the hand round the wrist. I never threw a punch, opponent went to hospital for wrist sprain.

The first is superior technique, successfully applied. The second example is inferior technique, successfully applied.

[LeiYunFat]

Come on Dao, break someone already. We all know you want to.

[daodejing]

Assualt charges tend to alter your career path for you.

[doc]

Actually, it would be battery, not assault.

Battery is the physical touching of another person, when that other person does not give you permission, with the intent of causing harm.

Assault is the threat of causing harm.

But, you're absolutely right. The legal aspects of "fighting" will most definitely alter your career path. Nice way of putting it. And, an important concept to boot.