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  • #16
    Originally posted by LeiYunFat

    This question is based off the fact that the brain needs to tell the various glands to release hormones. Since chemicals regulate sleep, do they not also indirectly regulate hormone production?
    Some hormone producing tissues have a direct feedback mechanism that regulates them, with superimposed regulation by brain tissue. Some tissues secrete hormones based directly upon stimulation of brain tissue, either by electro or chemical means.

    You're getting into one hell of a complex subject here, one which, due to the fact that I slept like shit last night, am going to have some trouble delving into right now.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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    • #17
      The answer to your question LYF is that not enough research has been done to actually answer your question. But even that, i dont really know for sure. Suffice it to say, you need to sleep and if you abstain from sleep it can/will kill you.

      If i were you i wouldnt go into does the body need sleep or just the mind? Body needs the mind and the mind needs the body, the systems do have some indepent function but are ultimately too entwined to fully seperate without cataclysmic consequences.
      Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Zhao Yun
        My kung fu master told me the same thing about sleep cycles, so I validate the 2 hour mark.
        Though personally I don't find any kung fu masters to be reliable sources of information on anything other than kung fu, the two hour mark has an interesting history.

        About thirty or forty years ago, the Olympics peoples commissioned a study on sleep for their athletes, and discovered that two hours was the bare minimum amount that an athlete could get and enable enough restorative repairative time for the human body.

        I'm not sure how they came about that. And I don't know if this has been confirmed again, so, I'd be careful before you start staying up all night playing computer games. Or, watching porn movies.

        OCONOMOWOC, Wis. — A sword-wielding Wisconsin man broke into his neighbor's apartment thinking he was chivalrous after hearing the cries of a woman he thought was in peril — but instead, she was in porn.

        James Van Iveren was in his Oconomowoc apartment listening to music when he heard loud cries from a woman he thought was pleading for help, reported the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. The 39-year-old grabbed a cavalry sword, a family heirloom, and rushed upstairs to forcibly open the quarters of an upstairs tenant he barely knew.

        "It was a woman screaming," Van Iveren said of the Feb. 12 incident. "She was screaming for help."

        Bret Stieghorst told police that he was watching a pornographic DVD when Van Iveren kicked open his door, damaging the frame and lock in the process, with a 39-inch blade in hand.

        Stieghorst said Van Iveren demanded "Where is she?" while thrusting the sword at him.

        The neighbor told police Van Iveren became increasingly aggressive as he repeated the question, insisting that he had heard a woman being raped. The complaint said that, with the sword pointed at him, the neighbor led Van Iveren throughout the apartment, opening closet doors to prove he was alone.

        Van Iveren insisted that he never threatened the neighbor with the sword.

        "I had the sword extended. But that was all," he said. "I walked in the front room and looked around. When I saw there was no woman, I left," he said.

        Van Iveren called it a mistake and said that his actions had nothing to do with Stieghorst.

        "I intended to hold it behind my back and knock. But I froze and instead, what happened happened," Van Iveren said. "Now I feel stupid. This really is nothing, nothing but a mistake."

        Police arrested Van Iveren on misdemeanor charges of criminal trespassing while using a dangerous weapon, criminal damage to property while using a dangerous weapon and disorderly conduct while using a dangerous weapon. If convicted he could face a maximum total penalty of 33 months in jail. Officers also confiscated his family's sword.

        An officer for the Oconomowoc police said the investigation is ongoing.

        FOX Milwaukee affiliate WITI and The Associated Press contributed to this article.
        Comical.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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        • #19
          why do they have to charge the man? and take his families sword? that's messed up... It was just an innocent maistake, STUPID, but harmless, they should just make him fix the door and maybe a little probation...

          just like that woman who got 2 years for throwing a cup of ice at someone, thats just plain ruthless and a serious abuse of power.

          one thing that i learned from human behavior is this; whoever has power, will abuse it.
          america has bee pretty screwed up since bush has been i office.

          its funny, nclinton gets a little head, and the world throws a hissy fit.

          bush ignites war and serves two consecutive terms without challenge.

          this world is beyond me...
          "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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          • #20
            That woman that threw ice into the other guys window got two years in jail? And her husband is in Iraq doing his third tour? All because the other guy was an asshole? Wow. What's this country coming to.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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            • #21
              funny thing is, the other day i felt like doing the same thing. good thing i didnt, i just stuck with the good ol' finger.
              "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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              • #22
                Zachsan, you may have guessed where I was going with this, cause you're a smart guy and I'm not the best at subleties.

                Since there's been little research in the direction I want to go, and I don't want to sound like a total idiot, I'll stop...



                -edit-
                Scratch that, this is purely hyopthetical science right now, and there's nothing wrong with discussing it...

                I've recently been made aware of a chemical by the name of dimethyltrypamine, or DMT.



                Information about DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) including basics, effects, dosage, history, legal status, photos, research, media coverage, and links to other resources.




                After reading about this strange and previously unheard of chemical, I was intrigued mostly on DMT's effect on sleep.

                Ethical concerns do not allow for the testing of this hypothesis in humans, as the biological samples must come from the living human brain. It is unknown if other animals actually do dream, as it is quite impossible to know this without their ability to tell us that they have had a dream, although REM sleep is highly correlated with dream sleep.
                Now basically, the brain produces or releases DMT during REM sleep. We've all got it and evidently need it to function...Well, perhaps that's not entirely true-- we need REM, and that's all we know thus far. But side effects of DMT use are as follows:

                When DMT is vaporized, the vapor produced is often felt to be very harsh on the lungs. According to a "Dose-response study of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in humans" by Rick Strassman "Dimethyltryptamine dose dependently elevated blood pressure, heart rate, pupil diameter, and rectal temperature, in addition to elevating blood concentrations of beta-endorphin, corticotropin, cortisol, and prolactin. Growth hormone blood levels rose equally in response to all doses of DMT, and melatonin levels were unaffected."[6]
                Does this not coorelate with the effects of sleep in general?

                The reason I wanted to compartmentalize and specify/reduce the definition of sleep was because I wanted to see if modern medicine defined it the same way as I had been basing my thoughts on. I had known that the body, if damaged, is in a constant state of repair, regardless of conciousness. I had also known that the biggest factor in advanced sleep deprivation was almost all mental. Lack of sleep makes you crazy, and the body follows suit, as Dao put it.

                The implications of understanding DMT are phenominal to me, and it seems possible that through understanding this chemical and it's effect on humans (if not mammals in general, as animals and plants have DMT), we can do some things with sleep that were before unprecedented. If we cycle through REM phases and if REM's biggest asset is it's release of DMT, could we not theoretically reduce sleep by hours via more efficient DMT administration?

                Just think of what progress can be made if we didn't all spend half our lives unconcious...
                Last edited by LeiYunFat; 02-23-2007, 07:12 AM.
                Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                • #23
                  Haha, DMT! Robo-tripping!! You're bringing back high school for me my friend.

                  Anyway I didn't really know where you going with it, that was just one of those vague, important-sounding comments that make people look smart without having to actually say anything. I just figured it was the right time for that.

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                  • #24
                    no, that wouldnt work. if there was no sleep, what would i do with my free time???

                    i can see it now, a vast market of dmt laced energy drinks...
                    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                    • #25
                      Oh man... that would not be good. Trust me.

                      To give you a sense of what I'm talking about, from the Wikipedia entry:
                      Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), also known as N,N-dimethyltryptamine, not to be confused with 5-MeO-DMT, is a psychedelic tryptamine, similar in structure to the neurotransmitter serotonin. DMT is created in small amounts by the human body during normal metabolism[1] by the enzyme Tryptamine-N-methyltransferase.
                      Pay attention to that word. They didn't just throw it in there for show.

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                      • #26
                        DMT however is not psychoactive without some other shit added to it.

                        But if it's in there...hooo boy.

                        Imagine a society of drugged up psychopaths...oh wait.
                        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                        • #27
                          Good lord, I really didn't want to get involved in this, getting ready for Thailand, and, working on the upcoming docTour, which we won't talk about, yet... Amazing how I can get sucked into things with this web site.

                          Let's get some basics down for everyone. The following simplifies it all very well.

                          Circadian Rhythms

                          The circadian rhythm is the schedule of physical and mental changes that occur over the course of a day. By and large, the circadian rhythm responds to light: we are active by day and drowsy at night. As daylight fades, our bodies start producing melatonin, which makes us drowsy and want to rest. Differences in circadian rhythm and melatonin production account for differences in individual sleeping patterns.

                          The Stages of SleepStages of Sleep

                          Over the course of a normal night's rest, we cycle through five stages. Stage One is very light sleep, from which we can be easily awakened. By Stage Two, both our eye movements and brain waves have slowed. Stages Three and Four are known as deep sleep. Slow brain waves known as delta waves appear in Stage Three, and dominate brain activity throughout Stage Four.

                          After Stage Four, the stages are reversed and the cycle begins again. At the end of the second cycle REM, or rapid eye movement, sleep is added. The limbs are temporarily paralyzed, heart rate increases, and blood pressure rises. Rapid eye movement can be seen under the closed lids. This is when we dream. Once REM sleep ends, we go back through the stages to Stage One, and another cycle that includes REM sleep begins.

                          The entire cycle of stages takes between 90 to 110 minutes. Over the course of the night, stages Three and Four shorten, and rapid eye movement periods lengthen. Before we waken, the cycle is almost entirely composed of stages One, Two and REM sleep.
                          For some added info, let's look at the EEG changes that occur in each stage.

                          Awake: EEG rate 8 -25 hz, low amplitude
                          Non REM sleep stages:
                          Stage 1: EEG rate 6-8 hz, low amplitude
                          Stage 2: EEG rate 4-7 hz, sleep spindles, medium amplitude
                          Stage 3: EEG rate 1-3 hz, high amplitude
                          Stage 4: EEG rate 1-2 hz, high amplitude

                          REM: EEG rate greater than 10 hz, high amplitude (dreaming, rapid eye movements)


                          The brain cycles through these rate and amplitude changes throughout the course of the night, only hitting REM sleep in the later cycles.

                          The following gif shows this well (click on it to blow it up):

                          sleeprem.gif
                          Note, that if you have short periods of sleep, you get REM sleep deprived, which, over time, will refresh itself by starting REM sleep earlier.

                          Another way of depicting the stages of sleep, though not as clear:

                          sleepcycle.gif

                          REM sleep is fascinating. The body experiences actual paralysis. "Sleep paralysis" is when you wake up during a period of REM sleep, and find yourself unable to move. It is extremely rare; it has happened to me once, that I remember. (This central neural muscle paralysis also occurs, to some extent, during fierce female orgasms, in which those that experience it complain of a strong generalized weakness). Also, waking up either in or around the REM sleep parts leads people to remember their dreams better, sometimes to the point of thinking that they were actually living them. As you age, the amount of time you spend in REM sleep diminishes, as does the total time of sleep.

                          Non REM sleep seems to be associated with physical body repair; people that have their NREM sleep disturbed complain of being physically tired. REM sleep seems to be associated with neural repair; it is thought that memories and the anatomical processes involved in learning take place during REM sleep.

                          Thinking that the body physically does not need sleep to "repair", or that lack of sleep does not affect the health of the individual is wrong. People who are sleep deprived tend to become insulin resistant; blood sugar increases and effectiveness of insulin activity diminishes, leading to obesity and diabetes. There can be an effect on other steroid production and effect, such as cortisol. Muscles and other tissues can repair during activity, though rest, especially during NREM sleep, facilitates that.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                          • #28
                            I found this excellent paper on sleep deprivation. It's detailed by relatively easy to follow.

                            The Effects of Sleep Deprivation on Brain and Behavior
                            Sarah Ledoux

                            Sleep deprivation is a commonplace occurrence in modern culture. Every day there seems to be twice as much work and half as much time to complete it in. This results in either extended periods of wakefulness or a decrease in sleep over an extended period of time. While some people may like to believe that they can train their bodies to not require as much sleep as they once did this belief is false (1). Sleep is needed to regenerate certain parts of the body, especially the brain, so that it may continue to function optimally. After periods of extended wakefulness or reduced sleep neurons may begin to malfunction, visibly effecting a person's behavior. Some organs, such as muscles, are able to regenerate even when a person is not sleeping so long as they are resting. This could involve lying awake but relaxed within a quite environment. Even though cognitive functions might not seem necessary in this scenario the brain, especially the cerebral cortex, is not able to rest but rather remains semi-alert in a state of "quiet readiness" (2). Certain stages of sleep are needed for the regeneration of neurons within the cerebral cortex while other stages of sleep seem to be used for forming new memories and generating new synaptic connections. The effects of sleep deprivation on behavior have been tested with relation to the presence of activity in different sections of the cerebral cortex.

                            The temporal lobe of the cerebral cortex is associated with the processing of language. During verbal learning tests on subjects who are fully rested functional magnetic resonance imaging scans show that this area of the brain is very active. However, in sleep deprived subjects there is no activity within this region (3), (4), (5). The effects of this inactivity can be observed by the slurred speech in subjects who have gone for prolonged periods with no sleep (6).

                            Even severely sleep deprived people are still able to perform to some degree on a verbal learning test. This implies that some other area of the brain must become active to compensate for the loss of temporal lobe functioning. In fact, activity can be seen in the parietal lobe that is not present during verbal learning tests using rested subjects (5). Greater activity within this region corresponded to better performance by subjects in research studies (7). Still, sleep deprived people do not perform as well on these tests as do fully rested subjects (3), (4). One possible reason for the poorer performance after missing sleep, aside from unregenerated neurons, could be the fact that since the parietal lobe is not usually used to performing tasks such as these it is not as adept at carrying them out. Therefore, when control switches from the temporal lobe to the parietal lobe some speed and accuracy is naturally lost. Interestingly, sleep deprived subjects have been shown to have better short-term memory abilities than their well-rested counterparts (6). Since memory is associated with this region of the cerebral cortex the fact that it is already active in sleep deprived people could make it easier for new synapses to be created, thus forming new short-term memories more easily.

                            While activity is seen within the parietal lobes of rested people as they think through math problems no corresponding activity is visible within the brains of sleep-deprived subjects. Also, no new area of the brain becomes active while the sleep deprived people work on math problems. Since sleep deprived people can still complete math problems, albeit with less speed and accuracy than a well-rested individual, this data implies that a region of the brain already in use is used for this task (1).

                            The frontal lobe is the most fascinating section of the brain with relation to sleep deprivation. Its functions are associated with speech as well as novel and creative thinking (5). Sleep deprived test subjects have difficulties thinking of imaginative words or ideas. Instead, they tend to choose repetitious words or clichéd phrases. Also, a sleep-deprived individual is less able to deliver a statement well. The subject may show signs of slurred speech, stuttering, speaking in a monotone voice, or speaking at a slower pace than usual (6). Subjects in research studies also have a more difficult time reacting well to unpredicted rapid changes. Sleep deprived people do not have the speed or creative abilities to cope with making quick but logical decisions, nor do they have the ability to implement them well. Studies have demonstrated that a lack of sleep impairs one's ability to simultaneously focus on several different related tasks, reducing the speed as well as the efficiency of one's actions (8). A person may be able to react to a complex scenario when suddenly presented with it but, similar to the verbal tests, the subject will most likely pick an unoriginal solution. If presented with a similar situation multiple times with slight variations in the information presented the subject chooses the same solution, even though it might not be as applicable to the new senario (9).

                            Part of the frontal lobe, the prefrontal cortex, has several functions specifically coupled with it. Judgment, impulse control, attention, and visual association have all been related to this region of the cerebral cortex (8). A recent study has shown that the prefrontal cortex, usually the most active area of the brain in rested individuals, becomes more active as a person remains awake for long periods of time (3), (4). This region regenerates during the first stage of sleep, giving a person the ability to feel somewhat refreshed after only a short nap (5). The length of the first stage of sleep cycle is somewhat dependant upon how long the person had previously been awake. The longer the period of wakefulness, the longer the brain remains in the first stage of sleep. When the brain enters into the REM stage of sleep the prefrontal cortex is active once more.

                            The implications of this data seem to be fairly important in supporting the location of the I-function within the brain. The prefrontal cortex is active whenever a person is awake, no matter how little sleep they have had. Also, this area is active while dreaming. Since the individual is aware of him or herself during both of these instances, but is not aware during the stages of sleep when the prefrontal cortex is shut down, it seems logical that the I-function is located within this region. This indicates that the I-function is what is resting and regenerating during the first stage of sleep. It would be interesting to study prefrontal cortex activity while a person is conscious, but unaware of his or her actions, due to an influence such as drugs or alcohol. According to the results of the sleep deprivation studies little or no activity should be seen in the prefrontal cortex at anytime when the individual is unaware of his or herself.

                            One of the symptoms of prolonged sleep deprivation is hallucinations (10). This could also be related to the I-function since it is the system that integrates the input from all other areas of the brain. If the neurons composing the I-function become too taxed then the picture in the head that the I-function produces may be more dissimilar from reality than usual. The neurons, under pressure to continue functioning but unable to perform optimally, create an image useful enough for a person to see most of his or her surroundings. Metabolic activity in the prefrontal cortex can drop as much as eleven percent after a person has missed sleep for only twenty four hours (8). As a person loses more sleep or continues to receive less-than-adequate amounts of sleep the neurons become even more taxed and the I-function may begin to generate even less coherent images possibly resulting in temporary insanity.

                            Another piece of evidence supporting the location of the I-function is that mammals have REM sleep whereas cold-blooded animals do not and mammals have a neocortex, located within the prefrontal cortex, while cold-blooded animals do not. REM sleep stimulates areas of the brain used for learning and memory (10). When a person is taught a new skill his or her performance does not improve until he or she receives at least eight hours of sleep (11). An extended period of sleep ensures that the brain will be able to complete the full sleep cycle, including REM sleep. The necessity of sleep for learning could be due to the fact that sleep increases the production of proteins while reducing the rate at which they are broken down (10). Proteins are used to regenerate the neurons within the brain. Without them new synapses may not be able to be formed, thus limiting the amount of information a sleep-deprived individual can maintain.

                            One of the possible side effects of a continued lack of sleep is death. Usually this is the result of the fact that the immune system is weakened without sleep. The number of white blood cells within the body decreases, as does the activity of the remaining white blood cells. The body also decreases the amount of growth hormone produced (8). The ability of the body to metabolize sugar declines, turning sugar into fat. One study stated that people who sleep less than four hours per night are three times more likely to die within the next six years (11). Although the longest a human has remained awake was eleven days rats that are continually deprived of sleep die within two to five weeks, generally due to their severely weakened immune system (10), (11), (12).

                            In a way sleep deprivation studies help us to study the relationship between the brain and behavior in a very unique way by observing how a person's behavior changes as the brain shuts down. By taking images of the brain showing where activity is located it is possible to correlate the behavior exhibited by a subject with his or her brain patterns. Just like a person cannot jog for three continuous days a person's brain cannot operate without rest breaks. Since different regions of the brain rest during different stages of the sleep cycle, sleep cannot be cut short. In fact, if the brain does not receive a break it will soon begin to shut down for periods of microsleep. This is essentially several seconds of actual sleep; delta waves that interrupt the regular EEG of an awake person thereby impairing his or her continuity of cognitive function. Microsleep generally happens directly before performance failure occurs (8). Without sleep our brains deteriorate, and if the argument that brain=behavior is true, then our behavior will also suffer accordingly.
                            I've attached a simple brain anatomy image so that you can associate it with the above.
                            Attached Files
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by doc
                              ...REM sleep is fascinating. The body experiences actual paralysis. "Sleep paralysis" is when you wake up during a period of REM sleep, and find yourself unable to move. It is extremely rare; ...
                              Is waking up and experiencing the "sleep paralysis" bad for your brain? I have this happen once every month or so. Freaks me the **** out!
                              "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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                              • #30
                                Tetsumaru - If you ever experience that again there's a really easy way to get out of it.

                                Simply focus all of your will on wiggling your finger. Just focus on your finger and wiggle it. From there, move on to your hand, and your arm, and before you know it you'll be thrust out of the astral and right back into your body. It works like a charm.

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