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Thread: Shi Yan Ming????

  1. #61
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    Mmmm, I have to agree... Actually Yan Ming takes a more western approach to Buddhism philosophy and traditions than China and the East does. So you have to be aware that a lot of things Yan Ming does is not what they would do in the Chinese tradition. Actually in many ways Yan Ming has dismissed the Chinese way of thinking in his interviews and articles and wants to take a more Western viewpoint when looking at Buddhism. Hence why Yan Ming has very very lose rules (if there are any), in drinking, marriage, materialism, etc. I can tell you right off the bat as a Chinese person, it is VERY SHAMEFUL for any master or actually anyone to ask for money in the way Yan Ming does (by punishment, or just his adoration for "Mr Benjamin"). Its very low class and greedy. Intellectual Chinese people are also not conceded and won't talk about themselves in such high regard. Buddha, Lao Tze and Confucist were all HUMBLE. So if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for.

    So in all of this, the important thing is to 1. Know what you want 2. Know what you are getting. Now thats kind of a trick question because 1. You may not know what you want because you don't have any experience on what is out there 2. You dont know what you are getting because the information is falsified or just not getting enough information. This is why its important to keep an open mind AND see what else is out there. Be honest with yourself also. Just cause Yan Ming's program is one certain way means thats your way. I found that out really late. I really wanted to learn what Jet Li did (wushu). I've been told thats shallow but I'll be honest with myself thats what I wanted to learn and do. I didn't even really know what the difference between Shaolin and wushu was. I thought it was the same. I WAS COMPLETEY WRONG until I really started learning Wushu. That being said... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF...... If you like Qi Gong, try to find a good Qi Gong teacher. If you like Yoga find a good Yoga teacher.

  2. #62
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    you said: "if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for." well, from what i have read about him, it sure seems as though he thinks of himself as a "Chinese traditional teacher."

    so, what are you learning now? traditional gongfu or wushu? what does yan ming teach anyhow?

    well, this controversy continues to revolve around yan ming, and from a spectators point of view, it's kind of easy to see why. i mean, basically, if you take a look at your last post and everything you asked/ answered for yourself, (which are all noble pursuits, in my opinion) then applied it to yan ming himself or the majority of his students, in that you ask them to be honest in doing the same, what would you have? honesty has to trickle down, if you catch my drift...

    of course, i could be completely off base here. in fact, these are just my observations after years of reading through different positions regarding yan ming. i just fear that even if a student had answered these questions for themselves respectfully, they would still be hard pressed in answering their questions about yan ming....unless they wore blinders, and this confusion would only lead to further questioning....and so on...until you have people like iron cross and mortal who are completely disillusioned with what they know of him. because these guys, after years of studying under yan ming (sometimes 4,5, or 6 years), seem to come away with very similar sediments. an honest question, then, would be, why? do they all misunderstand the insights yanming hopes to pass on, or is it something else? what do you think? does it even matter?

    -------

    as for the:

    Intellectual Chinese people are also not conceded and won't talk about themselves in such high regard.
    i would have to disagree. it depends. often it's just the way they relay the message that's different.

    and:

    Buddha, Lao Tze and Confucist were all HUMBLE.
    you broke bread with them before? please, do tell....:-)

  3. #63
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    Yan ming also thinks of himself as a shaolin warrior monk on a higher level than most other monks. It doesnt make him one.

    The big problem with alot of his students is they actually are in constant conflict with their own thoughts on his actions and the place in general. Most just feel trapped an incapable or expressing them to anyone there without the fear of being ridiculed or shunned by the others. To most there they have made that place such a big part of their lives that the prospect of being an outsider is almost unbearable.

    I talked to maybe a dozen or more people after i left there and they all acknowledged that they knew yan ming slept around, drank way too much, over charged everything and was incredibly egotistical about damn near everything. they also told me they tried not to think about any of it and didnt want to get involved. Ironically it was their combined lack of involvement that produced the environment where thee things could run rampant. When I was there I became the one critical voice over the insanity and was kicked out for it. I even asked folks to speak up with me since they all agreed with me. None did. I think they all feared the reasons I just said. That they would be labeled as outsiders or just kicked out.

    As for what he teaches in terms of style. He claims is the only authentic shaolin school around but in reality everything is just watered down wushu. In level 2 there are a few sanda kicks and punches too. All the basics are wushu basics. Everything from your lotus kick to fanyaos and slap kicks. The first 3 forms you learn there are basic wushu forms. The first called chuji quantao is actually wubu quan modified. the second called yiluquan in a basic compulsory long fist and is the 3rd form called erluquan. Though that form has all the more technical movements removed so the beginner students can manage it. No tornado no jump outside no balance movement. he does teach Xiao hong Quan Da hong Quan and a version of tong bei quan. All are traditional forms but they are not done in the traditional manner at all there. None of the movements are executed correctly in a traditional sense. If your lucky after 3-6 years youll be able to learn staff, depending on how hard to train, how loyal you and and how often you buy him beer. The staff form is rather basic and not taught properly. Instead of teaching staff basics he just starts showing you the form. Everyone there i saw learning the form did every part of it wrong. Most could not even hold the staff correctly.

    Thats basically it for what he teaches there. If you want to you can pay for the seminars he holds every so often. usually over $100 for learning a short form. They recently had a weekend seminar on long island that ran about $300 and they got to learn the same basics as in class part of the yi jin jing some tai chi and 1/3 of xiao hong quan from what i heard.
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by onesp1ng
    you said: "if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for." well, from what i have read about him, it sure seems as though he thinks of himself as a "Chinese traditional teacher."
    Where did you read that? He talks about his past in China and in Shaolin but doesnt say he is a traditionlist at all. I mean this article was written in the NYtimes about him. Actually I think by his own loyal student who identifies that he is not a typical monk......

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/ny...Martial%20Arts

    Quote Originally Posted by onesp1ng
    so, what are you learning now? traditional gongfu or wushu? what does yan ming teach anyhow?
    I don't know what Yan Ming teaches actually..... Its kind of a mixture of a bunch of random stuff. I think he just takes whatever and dumps it together in some routine.... I know there are only like 3 or 4 traditional "Shaolin" forms taught. I don't think anyone clearly knows what "Shaolin" is because of the Cultural Revolution, Communism and just general corruption... so I can't even say. I am not even sure if Yan Ming taught those forms or if he just recycled it from past teachers who taught there... that or the trip to China were apparently many students learnt forms from other Chinese masters....


    Quote Originally Posted by onesp1ng
    you broke bread with them before? please, do tell....:-)
    Yeah that was kind of a generalization. I'm sure you can some how over analyze some statements in the scriptures where they say not to be humble. But GENERALLY the scriptures teach that we should be humble... of course there are exceptions... blah blah blah... but thats useless to argue..... This whole forum goes back and forth about how a monk "should" be. And that seems endless so there is no point in going into. In my opinion, Yan Ming is not a traditionlist...... but thats subjective....

  5. #65
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    The whole Yan Ming situation continues to draw everyone doesn't it?

    I have to concur with Doc, where do you differentiate between Yan Ming and the marketing. I mean did Yan Ming really defect? The guys in the UK, US, Germany, France and other Shaolin destinations, have all chosen to pursue their paths internationally. Close to a million other mainland Chinese choose likewise each year. Does travelling so far from "your" temple make you any less a monk / a defectee? Apparantly not, as far as the Temple is concerned. Legally all it implies is that you have emigrated (legally or otherwise).

    Can you legally be a monk?

    So who is marketing that Yan Ming defected? Does it enhance the Yan Ming entity? Time for a bit of re-packaging?

    How much control does Yan Ming have around how he is marketed? I mean he might be in the West but what perception does he have of how he is perceived through western eyes? Once we get stars in our eyes, we are not balanced in our oppinion of them, if we promote them in that vein its no wonder they start to look warped. Happens to many of the celebrities, and it drives many of them to drink too.

    I am still sympathetic to Iron Cross, he was fortunate not to bear physical scars.

    However, the way Yan Ming treated him through the incident is exactly how they would have treated him in Dengfeng: they train in much hotter temperatures than 110F, and if someone passes out from heat exhaustion or otherwise, they wait for them to come round... if they don't come round after probably 30 mins or so, they are either dead or they get them to a hospital. But can we blame Yan Ming, personally, for behaving consistently here?

    You don't have to train when its 110F, I'm sure Iron Cross will think twice before he does so again, and I suggest anyone training with the Shaolin thinks likewise.

    You might still hold Yan Ming responsible tho, because, well, under his management there should have been a provision that someone took over and called an ambulance. Are USAST people too in awe / too frighten to over-rule Yan Ming even when what he instructs goes against good sense, when its too hot to train safely, when lives are threatened?

    It looks that way... and this is what I would be scared about if I was training with Yan Ming.... does the training facility have a gas oven?

    Hi JackWolf

    Its quite normal to call the person instructing you Shifu, like we used to call a School teacher Sir or Miss.

    I'm not sure about your theory on how the whole Shifu relationship works, it doesn't work like that in practise in China. They chop and change their shifus according to their spiritual needs, and shifus expect their charges to do so.

    Its no different to having a mentor in the western sense. You allow someone to mentor you as long as their influence suits you. If you find it ceases to benefit you or you find someone else who promises to have a more meaningful influence on you, you move on.

    Shi Heng Xuan has learnt from many masters along the way... and many of them like to think that they are his Shifu (go figure!), but only one spotted his talent, took him to Dengfeng... gave him his life. He may have taught him for only a year when he was just 10 years old, and then handed him on to Yan Zhang, a wuseng that could truly do justice to his talent. Heng Xuan is eternally grateful to this original Shifu, and continues to support him and respect his counsel 16 years later.

    Heng Xuan's also got a lot of time for Yan Zhang. We are presently very happy for him, he's just become a daddy.

    Chicken

  6. #66
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    Well, I'll tell you what i told all those psychos at shaolin. THIS IS NOT CHINA!!! If I was in china I wouldve been a bit more cautious about what i did, what I ate and who I associated with. Just like if Im in saudi arabia I wouldnt walk around talking about the absurdity of religion and how I'm an atheist. However, in the US I am fully free to do so and if someone tries to kill me for doing so they go to jail for a nice long time. So, maybe in china its cool to leave someone dying in the corner but not in mainland USA.

    In terms of who presses the he defecated thing. Well that would be himself and his management. It was featured in a documentary about him complete with re-enacted dramatic escape scenes. Its also on their website I believe. He also talks about it quite frequently.
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken
    The whole Yan Ming situation continues to draw everyone doesn't it?



    So who is marketing that Yan Ming defected?
    He did. As it's been told, it was part of the plan. And, there's a reason why he draws controversy. Which, is one clue to your question about the "legality of monks"...



    However, the way Yan Ming treated him through the incident is exactly how they would have treated him in Dengfeng:
    Not true. Not all schools would do that for one. And, for two, there's a difference between Dengfeng and New York. A big difference, that dictates a different approach.

    They're called lawyers.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  8. #68
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    I'm going out on a limb here but I think if an american student died of heat stroke at a chinese martial arts school, wherever it was in china, it would be the worst possible publicity for the school. In fact I think they would treat the foreign students extra special so they would report an awesome experience which would attract more foreigners and their foreign dollars.

    In any event I'm not sure how we got back on this subject. I thought we were talking about something else.
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

  9. #69
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    I'm with you Doc... but there's another difference: have any of you been to the hospital in Dengfeng? Would you want to go there if you were struck down with heatstroke in Dengfeng?

    We've been through this before: the serious lack of management and accountability in the medical system in Henan. If I collapsed from heatstroke over there, I'd prefer to take my chances on them bringing me round. Probably less risky, in that you're likely to recover from the heatstroke if you have people around you who are used to dealing with it, but not from the hepatitis / HIV infection that they might transfer to you if they take you to the hospital.

    Of course if I got heatstroke in the UK, I'd expect someone to call an ambulance to take me to Accident and Emergency.

    Moral of the story:

    It is a mistake to expect the warriors to respond to an emergency as we would.
    When you sign up for a school, investigate if the people supporting the warriors (even other students) will take responsibility in first-aid situations.

    That is where I think the failure lies in this instance... nobody said to Yan Ming, "What the f*** are we doing here?" and got out their cell phone and called 911.

    Was he not insured? Its one of my biggest worries that SHX might have enough command to over-rule local common sense in a first-aid situation. I remind him constantly that it is worse in the UK to not call an ambulance if someone gets hurt/taken ill, than to do so.

    Someone always sits in on his children's classes for precisely this reason, and there's enough mutual respect between SHX and his adults that they would take over in first-aid situations, and I talk about this to them. They realise his limitations.

    I mean... he is still trying to understand how the hospitals here are not hotels / free boarding houses... "What you mean I can come and stay here for the night and I don't have to pay?... Wah, that's really good!"

    At the same time, SHX will not let me get more than 10 yards from wherever we are staying in China in the summer, without buying me a bottle of water, and replacing it as soon as I suck it dry... its not that I won't do this myself, but he's just so concerned about the possibility of me getting heatstroke that he gets there before me.

    This is probably gender specific, I doubt he would do this for one of his pals or a male international student - its expected in China that you will put your health needs above everything else - the rest of your family is depending on you.

    Prevention is better than cure wherever you are.

    Chicken

  10. #70
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    Hi Chicken

    I think I have an unhealthy obsession with this topic.

    But just wanted to say that you are somewhat true in your statemnts.

    Yes, Yan Ming's students are his lamb. He has trained them to trust him in everything he says even if they are illogical. From what I understand of what in these accidents, everyone was looking to Yan Ming on what to do. I think if this happened on the street, students would have reacted and called an ambulance. But because this happened at the school, all the students drew a blank. Its actually quite amazing how strong the control Yan Ming has over his students. They really give themselves up for him (emotionally, financially, etc). Its amazing how bad leadership can make a bad situation worse.

    Perhaps if you were an immigrant of this country and had very little access to the American institutions would I allow you to get away with an act as to not know how to call 911. Yan Ming has been in this country for about 12-15 years. He has made a corporation out of his school. And you are telling me he does not know how to call 911? He seems to be able to go get his US citizenship, install credit card machines in his school, order and make branded clothing, open branches in 3 other countries.... just fine.... And you are telling me he has no concept of a hospital????? Probably you don't k now him but he is probably one of the most "AMERICAN" driven person I know. He seems to utilize everything that America has to offer in his day to day life. I am sure if his son or daughter was sick, he would bring them to the hospital.... its SIMPLE common sense.....

    Hopefully that will be it... hehehehe

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