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Do you really believe in gong fu?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by flow
    Lei yun Fat, you disagree with us saying the just do it Nike phylosophy ultra evolved bullshit. But when it comes to answers, why do i do this, why do i do that...Don't you find it too hard and time wasting to answer? Or maybe find a very expensive phychiatre to know why you're such a violent man???Or maybe just simply follow your instincts and say to yourself that there is no use to know the answer before asking the question? That even there is no answer we still go on with our lifes? That is the answer!

    What u guys think?
    Well that's the thing. I've asked most of the questions and I have my own hypotheses, but I will never know until I go out there and test the hypotheses.

    And I don't disagree with your "Just Do It" philosophy. I agree with it, in terms of seeing it as a legitimate answer, and I can understand it, but I don't think it applies to me, personally.
    Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by master-lu
      I want to discuss the reasons why so many of us train gong fu. (I mean Chinese MA, dont bother with the real meaning of the word being skill crap... most of us know that already)
      Please tell us wich style and forms you practice and if you feel the techniques are realistic and effective.
      I train Shaolin. I love Shao Hong Chuan. I use it when needed.

      I'm very interested in the different forms and styles and what peple are experiencing training them. What is the state of gong fu today? Are you/ we gong fu practitioners only doing gong fu because of assumed health benefits, a true belief in the chosen style etc...
      I think it's the same as it always is, lots of bad practice, a little good.

      Why gong fu and not some other martial art?
      Do you believe your style will be useful in combat? ( I mean a one on one barehands situtation so please dont bother fantasizing about super andvanced scenarios)
      I use it so I know it.

      Wich style of gong fu do you believe is the most practical and does it compare to other MA like for instance BJ or MUY Thai?
      What I am waiting to see happen is some of the MMA guys return to picking up or being exposed more to Shaolin and what it can offer.
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

      Comment


      • #18
        First I would like to thank all of you for sharing. Very interesting things have been said and this is helpful to me in my assesing or trying to evaluate the state of gong fu today. To Arhat- I too believe that some shaolin combat skills sooner or later will make it into the MMA. I too wait for that. I'd like to offer lei yun fat my support in his views. I too train for self defense and combat reasons aswell as for fun and health benefits. Sometimes when you say that you train for figthing people missunderstand and call you a bully or angry or violent etc wich is not the case. I know this from experience. When I tell people that gong fu is excellent for combat and that is the main reason i train in it some people missunderstand. Please continue sharing your views on gong fu it really shows us how broad gong fu is today you have young and old people doing it and for so many different reasons. How would you discribe your and your comrads self confidence when it comes to fighting? Your belief in the combat practicallity in the art you're doing? I know that many gong fu practitioners lack the very good self confidence that gong fu training really offers, in my view.

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        • #19
          I've been slacking alot on training lately. I was doing a fair amount of jiu jitsu a couple years ago, and it was influenced by my tai ji practice.

          Once while grappling someone with alot of wrestling experience (in a jiu jitsu class) he said, "its really weird but i feel like when i charge you you just sort of absorb and redirect my energy, and then your just not there anymore." I was pretty flattered. Figured that meant the tai ji practice was paying off.

          So, yeah i beleive my practice has positively effected my life, and my ability to defend myself in violent situations.

          On a side note, i just couldnt hold my tongue on this one, be real careful training krav maga unless your a massochist who enjoys crippling yourself in the long run. Of all the modern styles, its teachings (while effective for military style self defense) tend to use terrible body mechanics, and most students past middle age end up quitting from the sheer amount of damage the practice does to their bodies. If you want to train long term and cultivate health, krav maga is one of the worst styles you can possibly engage in. If you're in the military, in combat, and want to simply survive your tour of duty, then it can be a useful style to train. But, the body mechanics are terrible.
          Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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          • #20
            Shaolin gong fu is martial art.

            That must be the most obvious thing said on this thread until now. So I'll explain.

            Performing a traditional form of gong is performing a work of art and a beautiful chunk of history.

            The moves aren't easy and hold obvious or less obvious applications which take time and a lot of effort to learn and to perform. To do the moves the right way you must get the right feeling and flow and bring the form to life. Prearranged sequences resemble a lot what a dancer does: performing a work of art.

            But it's also martial, fighting, combat, or whatever you want to call it.
            Which is the other aspect of knowing your style or form.
            Not using only kicks and punches as in sanda but I do mean using the applications of the moves of the form.

            I said "applications of the moves" and not the exact same move in the exact same manner as in the form. A lot of people seem to think that they should be able to use a move from a form in a very rigid way with the exact same stance and position as in the taolu, but that hardly ever works. Or even worse if you're trying to use your stances as a ready position. Trying that will make you feel frustrated and think the techniques are worthless.

            But it does work if you are flexible in the use of the techniques. You can apply a certain chin na technique from a position or stance you happen to find yourself in at that given moment even if it's not the stance you learned it in. And with the right timing and positioning going unexpectedly into a Shaolin stance can result in an effective technique. A transition gong bu / ma bu / gong bu can be an effective takedown even if you`re not using your arms.

            Generally speaking I find using shaolin techniques as punching and blocking effective when doing them in a smaller or reduced way from a compact and mobile posture. And when it comes to throws and joint locks, most of those techniques become a lot easier when using the shaolin stances.

            When you're fighting it's fighting and not a performance art. Why use 4 big movements if you can get the same result with one small move? One of my teachers always said: a good fighting technique needs to be two things: fast and brutal. A lot of people are surprised when they see knees, elbows, head butts or shoulder strikes in gong fu. "Is that allowed?" I get asked frequently. Well next time someone want to assault you, sit down and go over the rules first...... And when I teach Chin na some students tell me that those techniques seem brutal. I don't know what's most brutal: a joint lock, a low kick or a punch on the nose that make it break.... In the end a fight is a fight and no matter what you do someone will get hurt so don´t worry too much about looking good doing it. Flashy moves from forms can be effective when done in less flashy ways.

            I mean when you want to use gong fu to fight you should use every tool you got from kicks and punches to elbows and joint locks and takedowns and groundwork. And you should know how to position yourself and work in all ranges. Adapt and mutate your form to fit the occasion without losing it's identity is my way to keep gong fu effective.

            But since we´re nice guys who don`t feel like going around beating up people we still got the artistical challenge of performing our forms to the best we can.

            And that's the beauty of Gong Fu, that it´s raw iand effective in fighting and refined and beautiful in forms.

            Comment


            • #21
              Are we talking Shaolin or Gong Fu in general here?

              Because one point you forgot to mention is that, yes forms are codifications of ancient moves which were originally created for fighting -in a time where no one would go out to town without a good sharp sword or at least a stick, at a time when you had tyrans and armed soldiers, thugs with horses and spears- but yes too, many -but not all i agree- of these moves are not really of actuality nowdays.

              I f we're talking Shaolin, i think it would be relevant to highlight this fact:

              Ultra hardcore internal and external conditioning! Probably the toughest training schedule in the world with the toughest forms of auto torture exercises performed for years all day long. Is this of no importance when we praise these Chinese's extraordinary habilities? Shaolin without this form of training is...something else. Shaolin started at a later age than 12 years old in these conditions is...something else too.

              And i believe that most of those who claim doing the Shaolin stuff have never and probably will never have experienced this side of the real training, hard, all day long, to the extremes, unless you go to one of these schools in China to at least get a taste a watered down version of it.

              Shaolin IS extreme conditioning, not only beautiful forms, meditation, but also hours spent hardening eveyr single limb...And as it comes to fighting i think that this extreme conditioning is the main reason why they are good fighters. Take this away, i don't believe they make really good fighters...

              What u think?
              The East? The West?

              Men and Women, that's all...

              Comment


              • #22
                While I admire the dedication of those who would, for whatever reason, go about and condition themselves in the manner of which you speak, I do not believe that this hardcore conditioning yeilds the best results, and therefore, the best fighters.

                And just what kind of conditioning are we talking about? Holding ma bo for hours? Head conditioning? Endless V-ups? I think there are better ways to go about fight conditioning, and the hardcore training I believe you are describing tends to be frivilous at best and counter-productive at worst.

                You said it yourself -- fighters need dynamic, explosive power, much like the type of stuff in Ross Enamait's training. I don't think that the type of Shaolin training I've heard about and seen properly trains this to the degree it should...I could be wrong, and it's happened before.

                Bear in mind this only relates to fight training. I do believe a lot of this hardcore shit like holding ma bu ad nauseum is productive to buddhism/spiritual cultivation.
                Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                • #23
                  Guys I hate to break it to you but you are NOT learning fighting when training shaolin. Especially only forms. You are simply developing attributes to be used when fighting. Forms is just a foundation to give you the ability to learn fighting. Shaolins focus is not fighting. It is spiritual expression and cultivation through movement. Similar to skateboarding.

                  Also these applications everyone keeps mentioning. I have news. Not everything in the form has an open hand fighting application. Some postures and transitions from high to low are just to train agility. Others are for later on when you are holding a weapon. Many of the open handed forms are training you to be in shape enough to actually learn a weapon. They weren't having many open hand fights back in the day. Usually you got good at one weapon and that is it.

                  Some of the moves have applications but if you are not training them on a resisting opponent they are worthless. I don't care if you move to shaolin and do shaohongquan from morning till night. No resisting opponent=no fighting skills. Sorry that is just the reality.

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                  • #24
                    So do you think there are many people that can actually teach these weapon applications?
                    I mean are there any guys that can really fight with a nine-section whip instead of just swingin it around and do acrobatics?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Coming back to the conditioning, i was trying to raise a point that had not been raised before but seemed to be crucial regarding Shaolin Gong Fu in particular (that is indeed famous for its exptreme conditioning etc).

                      From what i have seen (from the documentaries and books) their conditioning is really hardcore, not only with the qi gong but also the running, sprinting, hill sprinting, stair climbing, bodyweight exercises, endless repetition of moves like punching a phone directory for two hours non stop with the same arm, head and neck conditioning and so many more...

                      However another question raises: is a highly conditioned man a better fighter -putting skill appart? Does conditioning make a difference? And is Shaolin conditioning relevant to fighting (any kind of fighting for me it's all the same)?

                      Funny that you mention Ross, coz i am now following his animal training routine (i wonder where he got the idea of imitating animals?? hehehe) and it's pretty awesome for core power and endurance. His training actually reminds me of the Shaolin thingy. He doesn't hold Ma Bu for hours...Even worst he does the chair against a wall while squeezing a basket ball between is knees. I have tried this one and it is actually even tougher than Ma Bu. So yea this kind of strenght seems to be important too.

                      I don't understand what u mean by counter productive? Please explain so i get your point...

                      Thanks man
                      The East? The West?

                      Men and Women, that's all...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        For example, types of conditioning like marathon-type running have very little carryover to a combatant. Running long distances is actually detrimental towards things like gaining muscle mass, if that's a goal a fighter desires (unless you want to stay in a weight class, being bigger will tend to give you the advantage).

                        In addition, training ma bu for hours leads to strength gains, but they are isometric strength gains, and are built primarily in the spot that you sit. That means, the same strength does not carry over to a lower or higher stance. When fighting, staying in the same place is worthless. Why train strength in only one place? Endurance training has it's place, but this is not the best way to do it, especially when this is the only leg endurance exercise practiced.

                        The fact that the wall-sit you mentioned is harder than holding mabu is a good example. Intensity is the key difference here, something that some of the shaolin conditioning doesn't utilize enough.

                        If you put skill aside, conditioning is the ONLY thing left in the equation.

                        Would you rather fight

                        http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...s/shaolin1.jpg

                        or



                        *Olympic lifters are some of the most explosive althletes in the world.
                        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          LOL

                          Honnestly? I'm not sure.

                          The Shaolin guy is not looking great on the photo -i mean rather ridiculous and tiny (although i get your point)- but the other guy has got to be muscle bound and therefore slow (putting skill appart).

                          However due to his conditioning (assuming that he had gone through a proper Shaolin conditioning) i would be afraid of him, maybe more than the gigantic weight lifter. He would be fast, could definitly inflic damage (speed = power and with proper hand conditioning even worst).

                          But that doesn't mean i wouldn't be afraid of the muscle guy. In a streetfight this kind of big guys are always dangerous (i won't stand amongst those who say that these muscle guys can't fight coz they're slow it's not true, one straight hand -and for that u don't need years of practise- could send me to the moon).

                          So to your question i'm not sure what to answer -because we're putting skill appart. But if u add skill in the game, it's a tough question too because the Shaolin guy has got to be better at fighting -i mean surely more than muscle guy- but i would still worry about muscle guy to catch me opened or even worst, to start grappling with me (i'm just a light middleweight).

                          Who would you or anyone else prefer to fight and why?
                          The East? The West?

                          Men and Women, that's all...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'd take the Chinese guy !!!!

                            No, seriously though, The Shaolin guy. I train w/ guys of this caliber. Unless he's been training his fists, he's not such a hugh threat. Every kid at my school does the wushu / sanda thing. None of them train in punching telephone books, or standing on their head. Durring performances the break sticks on each other, but if you do your stance training, after a year or so you can take a stick across your leg and it doesn't hurt,,, much.
                            Anyway, my point is, these small guys do have speed, but most of them do the wushu thing and don't become that strong or threatening. I might still get beat down but I feel I'd have a better chance against him.

                            I had a weight lifting friend in High school. He loved to have people punch him as hard as they could. I punched him in the sternum, the ribs, the armpits, all of which are not happy places to get hit. He would just laugh every time. It never phased him. There was simply too much muscle in the way. If I punched him with a single knuckle or in the throat it might have been a different story, but he was my friend.

                            I'd rather fight a skinny guy, even if he is fast and has been training. Against the big guy, there's too much muscle to have to get past. Too much of a chance that the nlows you DO land will have no effect. You need that opening, that lucky or well placed shot. It's your only chance. And if he lands a solid blow in the meantime, your up shits creek !!!!!
                            "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                            • #29
                              its not just muscle mass or density, albeit that that is a big issue defensively. Impact does damage, that's weight x speed. Seems to be the case in all nature, that there is a law of diminishing returns "the bigger the slower".

                              I imagine though that the trade-off must have an equilibrium, so at some size with maximum speed you are probably going to be a more definitive fighter than a bigger individually. Your strikes have more impact, and hit target more often as your bigger opponents are slower to get out of the way, and you are faster so you get out of the way faster than your opponents can tag you.

                              The Shaolin also think that the smaller you are the more potential you have from a wushu persepective... I think they deduce this from years of training and seeing their taller and bigger friends fall by the wayside.

                              As if to attest this... I have this tiny white cat... Kinka, who is completely deaf, with a body of about 35cm, height to shoulder about 23cm.. she's by now semi-feral... is taking to having her head stroked if you approach her in a way that doesn't alarm her. Then within like a fraction of a second she turns psycho-cat, and you get your hand out the way as quick as you can. If I put the mop around her bed she hits is with such a force... it scares the living daylights out of me. I've had cats that are like nearly twice as big, but they are nothing on this little minx.

                              I think ths attests to the points made earlier, even if you are the best equipt cat in the world if you never go out rat-catching or have to defend yourself, well your just a big ***** cat... on the other hand, if you live life on the street, and have to fight everyday just for a safe place to sleep and to get your dinner, then you're a small tiger.

                              I think the Shaolin attest to these aspects of nature. They are small but practised extensively, to the point of being definitive when they fight. Yes if you land them, and your big you could do some damage, but they are so fast they are likely to knock your lights out before you've even thought about where to get them.

                              For Mischabusch I'm going to point out the obvious with 9 section whips - people would get terrificly maimed if they ever really went for it with them, so we are never going to know if they can use them to effectively fight. But speaking from experience, and double 9 section-whips are SHX's speciality, he doesn't just do forms with them, he makes up tricks. He also teaches these moves to younger performers. Whilst he's teaching them, you can see the difference between a student and a master... in the real sense of the word. They try countless times to do what he's telling them to do... eventually he takes them from the student, and first time he's got the ends dancing and can place them absolutely anywhere he wants to within a fraction of an inch. And this is even though they've been in storage for a couple of months.

                              I'm left without a shadow of a doubt that he could easily take your eyes out with them if it ever came to it.

                              Chicken

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                              • #30
                                You guys are missing the point. The point is not that he is huge, the point is that his conditioning has been explosive lifting. I'm willing to bet good money that the olympic lifter I posted is significantly faster than the shaolin guy. The fact that Oly lifts require insane amounts of balance and coordination is also a factor.

                                Look at the album I posted with the lifter. You might get a sense of just how powerful these guys are, but there are also pics like this one



                                that show that these guys aren't "big and therefore slow"
                                Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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