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U.S. vs CHINA, just how stupid is the world anyway?

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  • #16
    My boss, who is a fabulously successful Chinese billionaire entrepreneur, cites his success on the experiences he had as a child in Shandong. He watch people starve to death around him. He thinks this gave him the drive to succeed, in as much that he associates these experiences with failure.
    It's been my experience that successful Chinese businessmen are either born into a successful business, or succeed off of the hard labor of many other less fortunate Chinese individuals. I've known quite a few of them. I"ve also met many, many other Chinese workers who have watched people starve, and who continue to barely survive.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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    • #17
      Forgive me for coming into the conversation late... I skimmed past most of the thread since even I don't have an unlimited lunch break. So again sorry if I've missed something. But Chicken, your original point seemed to be that a world in which China was the sole superpower would be a good thing.

      When the objection was raised that the national Chinese don't exactly place a huge premium on individual rights, you responded that there's no reason we should expect them to value the same things as we do in the West. But that wasn't the question; the question was why a China-dominated world would be a good thing.

      You say you're not communist, but you're asserted that a country which rejects the "cult of individualism" (your words) could "save the human race from itself" since “the state is all powerful” as opposed to the individual. And you said, "Just because it doesn't meet the US idea of what is acceptable, doesn't make it unacceptable. It just points to more elitism..."

      So it seems that either you don't believe in right and wrong outside of cultural context, or you are in fact a communist or something like it. I'm not saying this is what you are, but this seems to be the logical conclusion to your arguments, at least based on my skimming.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Doc
        You should read the latest stuff that is being written, based upon factual evidence being recently released.
        Happy to, where do you suggest I start?

        Originally posted by Doc
        Remember Chicken, everybody writes their own history. USSD, Xingwei, Yanming, China, the Mormons, etc, etc, and they rewrite it also, to suit the occasion and the need. Eventually, the truth comes out, with time. Your posts are full of the typical, usual bullshit that I've heard from many Chinese friends, regurgitating what they were taught, what they see on Chinese controlled television, what they're fearful parents tell them. But, eventually, the truth does spread....
        Other than when SHX is with me when I'm subject to a backdrop of a neverending stream of classical gongfu soap operas, I don't watch TV. Also do you think I should go back and tell my professors at Leeds University, that the Modern Chinese Studies & Economics degree that they lectured me in the 1990's was a load of tosh?

        Originally posted by Doc
        It's been my experience that successful Chinese businessmen are either born into a successful business, or succeed off of the hard labor of many other less fortunate Chinese individuals. I've known quite a few of them. I"ve also met many, many other Chinese workers who have watched people starve, and who continue to barely survive.
        Well here's a new one for you. My Boss was entrusted to select, deploy & test in Guangzhou technologies that he was then further required to roll-out through the rest of China. The same technologies which were responsible for China's technology-driven economic development in the late 70's, early 80's and 90's that perpetuates to this day.

        You might want to think about that responsibility for a while, and the probable consequences of having gotten it wrong, and what this implies for his nerve, his abilities, confidence in said abilities, and his capacity for risk-taking.

        As far as doing it through climbing up on less fortunate individuals, he runs one of the very few purely private enterprises here in GZ and employs close to 5,000 people going back as far as 1993. I've worked with for him on and off since 1994, close to 15 years, as have many of my friends. Needless to say none of us think we are unfortunate.

        Doc sorry but I think coming up with a "not everyone who watched people starve in Shangdong is the Chinese equivalent of Sir Richard Branson" response, usually goes without saying and is a touch oppositional / pedantic.

        So I will bear it in mind that it appears that you are a tad irked with me.

        Chicken

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chicken
          Also do you think I should go back and tell my professors at Leeds University, that the Modern Chinese Studies & Economics degree that they lectured me in the 1990's was a load of tosh?
          No, I'm not suggesting that. All I'm saying is that my impression of some of what you are saying, reminds me of the stuff that I hear from my Beijing friends, who have been brought up in a culture of "washing Mao", among other things.

          I've read three books on Mao, the one by Short was good but "cleansed", the earlier one was pure propaganda, and the latest, by Jung, a Chinese, really seems to get into the true nitty gritty there. It's an eye opener, with respect to what she writes and what you hear from many people in Beijing.

          But I'm still learning. Long way to go to get past the "smoke and mirrors"...
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #20
            I have been wanting to read Jung's book on Mao. I just read Jung's earlier book "Wild Swans" not too long ago. It's a serious eye opener. It was banned in China ! The book tells the story of Jung's mother, grandmother and great grandmother. The book starts in the late 18oo's and goes up to '79, when Jung got the chance to be one of the first Chinese to after the Mao era to study abroad. As both of her parents were officials durring the entire Mao era it gives you a year by year breakdown of life durring that period. The amount of thought control and propaganda is amazing ! Mao was a god at making people do what he wanted them to and making sure that anyone who could ever oppose him would suffer or die.

            After reading the book I talked to a couple teachers here about that period. What I found blew my mind. I had teachers tell me that things that are described in that book never happened, that the events that took place happened at different times than the book claims, and that the situation was never "that bad". The conclusion, the Chinese populace are still being taught propaganda !

            For example. Durring the "Great Leap Forward, 1958" Mao orders the schools shut down and the majority of farmers to stop farming so that everyone could participate in colection and production of steel. The "backyard steel furnaces."

            the result. Not enough farmers to plant and harvest crops. 1959 to '62 the Famine !
            The people, due to the fact that even basic weather reports are controled by the Govt., believe that the famine is localized and due to bad weather in neighboring towns and villages. Only the upper officials know what the weather is like in the city next door !

            So I asked a teacher what she thought about this period, as she had lived through it. She proceeded to tell me that I had the dates wrong. That the famine was only in the late 50's not the 60's, and that the steel production happened in the early 50's shortly after Mao had taken power, and theirfor could not have been connected.

            Anyone in the world can look up these facts right now as they read this. It is blatantly wrong. I have the dates correct. This teacher was taught the WRONG dates of these events. Anyone who looks at the two events can see that they are in fact connected and that it was a horrible decision by Mao that cost the lives of roughly 30 million Chinese, and roughly 35% of the peasants. It even turned many people to cannibalism, some parents even eating their own children !

            I was told by one of my friends here, a history teacher, that this was wrong ! The figures were not that high and there were no reported acts of cannibalism. That's what she has learned through her years of studying and teaching Chinese modern history. She HAS been taught wrong information by her own Govt., propaganda, the spreading of information to damge a cause. In this case the cause is to to know the truth, the fact that their beloved god of a ruler, MAO, made horrible managerial decisions on numerous occasions that cost the lives of massive amounts of his own people.

            I was told by the same history teacher that all of the horrible acts that happened were a result of the actions of other top acting Communist leaders such as Lin Biao. Lin Biao had been Mao's next in line for rule of the Govt. and was known as "the man who never lets Mao's little red book leave his hands, nor 'Long live Mao' leave his lips". He mysteriously died in '71. It is taught that he attempted to assassinate Mao. What ever caused his death, it is taught that he was one of the main men behind the attrocities that happened durring the cultural revolution, not Mao ! And the Chinese appear to believe this, to my dissmay, with out a shimmer of doubt.

            Some of the banned websites here include: CNN, Washington Times, The New York Times, The L.A. Times, and Wikipedia. Basically anything that would give you factual information about what's happening in the world.

            It's sad when you have a question and your not permitted by your Govt. to know the answer. But this is how the people here live. It's no exaggeration.
            Last edited by baiwanxi; 04-07-2007, 11:42 AM.
            "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Zachsan
              Forgive me for coming into the conversation late...
              that you have, but I'm not so sure I will forgive you for trying to label me a communist without an apology.

              Originally posted by Zachsan
              I skimmed past most of the thread since even I don't have an unlimited lunch break. So again sorry if I've missed something. But Chicken, your original point seemed to be that a world in which China was the sole superpower would be a good thing.
              I suggested it might be a good thing not, that it would be a good thing. Reasoning:
              1) the analogy relating to nation states internationalism in relation to their years of existence and stable government
              2) China seems to have a passive interest in all matters that are going on outside its borders
              3) The US & UK are currently interfering in matters in their best interests that seem to be destabilising the world.

              Originally posted by Zachsan
              When the objection was raised that the national Chinese don't exactly place a huge premium on individual rights, you responded that there's no reason we should expect them to value the same things as we do in the West. But that wasn't the question; the question was why a China-dominated world would be a good thing.
              Well its a non-sequitor. And I'd already higlighted at least 3 points of reasoning. So you want me to keep labouring it?

              Originally posted by Zachsan
              You say you're not communist, but you're asserted that a country which rejects the "cult of individualism" (your words) could "save the human race from itself" since “the state is all powerful” as opposed to the individual. And you said, "Just because it doesn't meet the US idea of what is acceptable, doesn't make it unacceptable. It just points to more elitism..."
              OK I will spell it out... the 3rd reason identifies the superpower putting self-interest over others... you think its making the world a better place?

              You're telling me that such reasoning makes me a communist?


              Seems you also missed that LYF also acknowledged that China was Communist only in name. I'm living with Chinese in China, I am friendly with a number of party officials, none of whom classify themselves as Communists as according to the definition, they do not advocate communism, further they are not practising communism, well not as far as I've seen and I've been living out here on and off since 1991

              Originally posted by Zachsan
              So it seems that either you don't believe in right and wrong outside of cultural context, or you are in fact a communist or something like it. I'm not saying this is what you are, but this seems to be the logical conclusion to your arguments, at least based on my skimming.
              Beliving in right and wrong would make me judgemental and I'd rather stick needless in my eyes. Please spend some more time in airports reading the HSBC advertising. What's one man's beef is another man's poison, and this is all the more valid once you start operating in different cultures.

              The chinese didn't believe in the cult of individualism before the CCP and the return to a market economy. So why now does not believing in individualism make you a communist, have the Chinese always been Communist?

              Is your idea of a communist, a catch all nomenclature for anyone who doesn't believe in individualism?

              I think your aspersion is not only insulting to me but to every single person out there that considers themselves to be a communist.

              Chicken

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chicken
                I think your aspersion is not only insulting to me but to every single person out there that considers themselves to be a communist.

                Chicken
                Do you consider yourself to be a communist then? Just curious.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #23
                  If I considered myself a Communist why would I ask for an apology?

                  Chicken

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chicken
                    I think your aspersion is not only insulting to me but to every single person out there that considers themselves to be a communist. Chicken
                    The way that you wrote that sentence above can lead one to believe that you either consider yourself to be a communist, or, lean towards that polical direction.

                    Originally posted by Chicken
                    If I considered myself a Communist why would I ask for an apology? Chicken
                    Um, because you said this:

                    Originally posted by Chicken
                    I think your aspersion is not only insulting to me but to every single person out there that considers themselves to be a communist. Chicken


                    No insults have ever been meant or implied.

                    So, are you, or aren't you? Enquiring minds want to know.

                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #25
                      All this conversation is enlightening me, is that either many of those posting on this thread have never been to china, are incredibly parochial, and even if they have been, they have bearly scratched the surface... clearly most of you wouldn't be able to tell a socialist, conservative and liberal from each other, let alone a communist.

                      Not knowing what you are talking about, and still making aspersions implies that you are ignorant on such matters or taking the p.

                      Either way, nothing I can say now will make any difference to what you've already oppinionated, so I can only look forward to when you are all enlightened on this matter, and we can have a meaningful discussion.

                      In the meanwhile, I'm still waiting on an apology from Zachsan.

                      Chicken

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chicken
                        clearly most of you wouldn't be able to tell a socialist, conservative and liberal from each other, let alone a communist.

                        Chicken
                        You're absolutely correct.

                        Which is why we're asking you.

                        Are you a communist?

                        Enquiring minds still want to know.
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #27
                          I can def. tell a conservative from a liberal, I was raised in the D.C. metro area, but I can't tell a socialist from a communist from a hole in the wall ! That's why I'm currently reading up on some Marxist ideology. Communism has many distinguishing factors, but I still can't pin down what exactly socialism is ! It's confusing man ! There's a lot to it, many different kinds of socialist too.

                          Far as I can tell, China was only a true communist country for a hot minute when Mao first sat on his throne. After that he warped it in to something much closer to a autocracy using thought control as his parliament. Now it has become something different. Not communist, not socialist. Socialism isn't big on entrepreneurism, but China sure is !

                          I don't know what China is now, but the people here don't consider themselves communist anymore. I've been told that on several occasions by the teachers at my school and kids I've met durring my traveling.
                          "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                          • #28
                            Socialism is more of a social ideal.

                            Communism is an economic theory. Judging based on economic theory is flawed, as I came to realize earlier. We Americans often want to call out Commies, based on the fact that Communism and Socialism go hand in hand. However, this is not a causal relationship, and is not always accurate. It would be like someone hating our democratic values because we partake in a Capitalist economic system. There are plenty of Capitalist non-democratic nations out there.

                            In addition, we know that China is no longer a Communist economy. As far as I can tell, North Korea is a true Communist government, despite Kim Jong Il's lavish self-indulgent imports.
                            Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                            • #29
                              LOL, well thanks for that. Glad that we worked out where the disconnect was coming from.

                              I think this is one advantage of Europe still being a conglomerate of inter-linked nations. It means in some instances that you can just cross a border and feel the difference in politics and economic topologies.

                              Doc I make socialists' toes curl, in the UK I'm that true blue. My family are entrepreneurs and have been for as long as records can be traced, entrepreneurs don't entertain socialist governments as the governments don't entertain usually entertain them, as LYF said.

                              I'll give it to you, that I have two interfaces to my personality, and that's the international one. The China one, is very much more interested in people and passive, although as a capitalist, I am in heaven in China in the present epoch.

                              Either way, I think you would find that a true communist would consider me to be the scurge of society, hence that's why I think communists would be offended by suggesting that I am one. Clearly since I'm so the opposite of communist, I do find it slanderous being labeled such.

                              Either Zachsan isn't login in or he doesn't mind slandering others. I hope its the former as he will fall from a high height in my estimation otherwise.

                              Chicken

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                              • #30
                                Well, I'm sorely disappointed that you're not a communist.

                                It would have been fun to have one in the gang.

                                Bummer.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


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