Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Understanding Radical Islam

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    BTL, if someone was planning to kill you, cant i criticize him and be non violent. There is responsability and blame in emptiness. Thanks for the comment, i ll try to be as non violent as you in my criticism.

    One, you in the case in Afghanistan is NATO. It includes France. But i am not french, i m basque, that s a different history, just talking about france habits of colonization and imperialism. But i also dont say nothing should be done about Talibans. The question is what to do?Does killing really help the situation? Did it help Israel with the terrorist problem?

    Xing Heng, the problem is some people make mistakes doing wars. Like recently Israel in Lebanon. What about the Opium wars in China? And didnt the USA took part in making imperialist wars in China? The chinese still remember this. And the problem in buddhism is that mistakes can turn into habits, samkara. Once you stop contemplating non violence it becomes harder to recontemplate it. It is like anger, anger can become an habit.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
      BTL, if someone was planning to kill you, cant i criticize him and be non violent. There is responsability and blame in emptiness. Thanks for the comment, i ll try to be as non violent as you in my criticism.

      One, you in the case in Afghanistan is NATO. It includes France. But i am not french, i m basque, that s a different history, just talking about france habits of colonization and imperialism. But i also dont say nothing should be done about Talibans. The question is what to do?Does killing really help the situation? Did it help Israel with the terrorist problem?

      Xing Heng, the problem is some people make mistakes doing wars. Like recently Israel in Lebanon. What about the Opium wars in China? And didnt the USA took part in making imperialist wars in China? The chinese still remember this. And the problem in buddhism is that mistakes can turn into habits, samkara. Once you stop contemplating non violence it becomes harder to recontemplate it. It is like anger, anger can become an habit.

      I am 99.9 % sure that this is beyond alot of ppl, yay for me, but, no. I dont believe you can.

      Acknowldging the breaking of rules like laws is one thing, but you dont have to 'sink your boot in' just because the person is sick spirited or at a limited avataric evolution point and accordingly you perceive them to be weak because of that. even if they are. that is some pretty serious arrogance.
      Offering other means to live skillfully, is a liiittle bit of a difference concept to compassion and non-violence imo and it doesn't resolve anything by directly of itself offering a solution to what's really going on and what their issues that leads them to feel like doing that are about.


      There is NO blame in emptiness. If you're finding blame, then that's not emptiness. emptiness is feeling what it is to be 'without'. who do youuu want to blame for that?? responsibility schmonsibilty aswell. no body owes you d*ck sh*t.

      the onus is on youuu to deal with it or loose/die whathaveyou. you work out how to communicate and work with the real issues, or you're just another loud mouthed upstart arrogant pig who may aswell save their breath if they're going to be so ignorant. it doesn't show mature compassion for the real cause and it certainly doesn't effect proactive solution. if you see a cause, why not find a viable solution and just go ahead and employ it to the infrastructure instead of nitpicking and throwing sh*t just for the sake of rubbing salt in?

      it takes allllllooot of compassion to reeeally be able to accept ppl enough to acknowledge the feeling and logic they're working with, and come up with something to tend for it.

      Like ppl on steroids and pushing pharmacueticals. It makes me sick to my stomache and think they're frauds and broken, but I can see it's place in the world and why they're not so much as just a modern expression of technology meets the same old bullsh*t. I have no criticism that ppl be like that, but, it makes me sooo sick, that I'm okay to offer them ( western civilisation if I ever get out translated and circulating) wugong theory and practices for example to use instead.
      do you criticise your parents privately and expect that doesn't result in resent and violent emotions? it still doesn't fix what they "f*cked up" about though does it. why just pick on the old folks like thaat alone is going to resolve it?

      maybe later, if not you or I even, then someone else will be able to find something else to offer to resolve it where they can or could not. and thaat liutangsanzang, is proactive compassion and the way the world goes around and how logistically and mathmatically even , I believe, we end up at parinirvana. all it is is bitching until someone caan do that. and that is what samsara is best value for, speaking of tibet and theravadan or even vajrayanan buddhism.

      I dont know what youu expect to acheive by criticism? how enlightened of a thing to do you think that that is?


      Blooming tianshi lotus.
      Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-16-2008, 08:33 AM.

      Comment


      • #63
        From Yahoo news:

        In a much-anticipated speech Thursday to the Knesset, Israel's parliament, Bush showered Israel with praise, strongly reiterated its right to defend itself and only gently urged leaders to "make the hard choices necessary," without mention of concrete steps. By contrast, he did not visit the Palestinian territories nor mention the Palestinians' plight. He spoke of them only in one sentence saying that Israel's 120th anniversary — in 2068 — would see it neighboring an independent Palestinian state.


        Does the right to defend oneself includes killing children? Isnt it state terrorism? And is there even a right to use force against terrorists? Gandhi has proven that non violence is a far better way to resolve conflicts? And in Europe, terrorists have the right for a trial, a lawyer and not be killed. There is no right to use force. This right does not seem self evident.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
          Gandhi has proven that non violence is a far better way to resolve conflicts?
          Ghandi is dead. He was shot by a Hindu radical.

          So much for that.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
            From Yahoo news:

            In a much-anticipated speech Thursday to the Knesset, Israel's parliament, Bush showered Israel with praise, strongly reiterated its right to defend itself and only gently urged leaders to "make the hard choices necessary," without mention of concrete steps. By contrast, he did not visit the Palestinian territories nor mention the Palestinians' plight. He spoke of them only in one sentence saying that Israel's 120th anniversary — in 2068 — would see it neighboring an independent Palestinian state.


            Does the right to defend oneself includes killing children? Isnt it state terrorism? And is there even a right to use force against terrorists? Gandhi has proven that non violence is a far better way to resolve conflicts? And in Europe, terrorists have the right for a trial, a lawyer and not be killed. There is no right to use force. This right does not seem self evident.

            Imo, violence is a bridging mechanism, created by nature, where no other more immediately viable option is available.

            If you yourself, or anyone else, for whatever reason, misunderstand the true nature of the crisis, then that criticism is an injuctice of it's own, and iis therefore violent.

            there is a right to do all of that stuff you mentioned, by virtue overruling by nature. I have dead set seen that used in a western court by a tribal lawyer, more or less with the summary note along the lines of ' if you dont like it, then youu fix the issue that it's all happening because of'. I think that same concept is why the bali bomber's case was so intricate, but clearly, they had already considered the matter and deliberated that they diid have another means of resolving of it, therefore the charges stood.

            I also think, that through no fault of your own, so much as your personal evolution at this point, for as informed and experienced as you are in some departments, seperate from enlightenment of true nature of the crisis's you encountered, that you are shallow and immature and really miss the point. maybe thaat's why you can't claim truth in any one belief system or see the mutual one in all of them.

            Consistency of applicative logic, .. I dont think you have. first you come here criticising ( like Doc for his administration or whatever the hell that was about the board here), let alone entire religious denominations and by virtue doctrine and even underpinning dharma of those, which doesn't do big things for me intellectually btw except to note your own disposition to that, then you criticize ppl for criticizing that you criticize, thhheeen you 360 in complete circle and make an argument for the merit of it.

            I dont think you know if you're coming or going to be honest, but that being the case, you're likely in exaactly the right place.

            Blooming tianshi lotus.

            Comment


            • #66
              Wu said this?

              "Take the case of Saddam Hussein. I have the feeling that in the eyes of President Bush, Saddam is hundred percent negative, that the only solution is to kill him. But reality is different. It has 2 levels. On a conventional level, Saddam Hussein is not hundred percent negative since his birth. is the result of many causes, not only him. It is not independant. It depends on many causes, including the americans themselves. During the gulf war, everybody was condemning him. I felt it was unjust and my heart was with him.

              He didnt become a dictator from one day to another. Dictator, invader, bad. Grave incidents happened because of his army. Without it, without its weapons, he cannot be agressive. But weapons were not made by Irak people but by Westerners. Western companies helped create his aggressivity. They made it then they condemn him. It is unjust.

              That is for the conventional level. Saddam is not hundred percent bad. For instance he can be good to his wife. But there is a subtler level:when a man like Bush has negative feelings towards Saddam, in his eyes he is real, independant, absolute, totally bad. And in the eyes of Saddam Bush is very negative, absolute, independant... it represents evil. In both cases there is a misunderstanding about reality. This reality is pure mental projection.

              If conditions changed, he could become very nice. It is possible. Take anothe example: in the eyes of Ben Laden, America is hundred percent bad. This ignorance creates catastrophy. For Ben Laden, the wole western world is anti muslim. Particularly America that attacks so many countries. So he decides he has a real enemy, independant. It is a false view on reality.

              He should see America is a part of the Arab world, that they are interdependant. And not only America. In western europe, you hear critics of the muslims that have settled there. But of course America and Europe are not hundred percent anti muslim. So it is a mental projection, a narrow view, a mistake. Interdependant vision is vaster. There is nothing real to be attached to. It reduces attachment because there is no object to be attached to. Our desire, our craving for objects and beings is reduced."

              " When human emotions lack control, the best part of our brain, the part for judgement, can not be used. Of course, some conflicts, some differences will always exist. But we must use differences in a positive manner, trying to draw energy from the different opinions. Try to reduce violence, not by using force, but by using consciousness, respect and dialogue."

              It seems president Bush and a part of America is not considering using dialogue... And that they want to kill the children they have raised, without acknowledging they created them.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                Wu said this?

                "Take the case of Saddam Hussein. I have the feeling that in the eyes of President Bush, Saddam is hundred percent negative, that the only solution is to kill him. But reality is different. It has 2 levels. On a conventional level, Saddam Hussein is not hundred percent negative since his birth. is the result of many causes, not only him. It is not independant. It depends on many causes, including the americans themselves. During the gulf war, everybody was condemning him. I felt it was unjust and my heart was with him.

                He didnt become a dictator from one day to another. Dictator, invader, bad. Grave incidents happened because of his army. Without it, without its weapons, he cannot be agressive. But weapons were not made by Irak people but by Westerners. Western companies helped create his aggressivity. They made it then they condemn him. It is unjust.

                That is for the conventional level. Saddam is not hundred percent bad. For instance he can be good to his wife. But there is a subtler level:when a man like Bush has negative feelings towards Saddam, in his eyes he is real, independant, absolute, totally bad. And in the eyes of Saddam Bush is very negative, absolute, independant... it represents evil. In both cases there is a misunderstanding about reality. This reality is pure mental projection.

                If conditions changed, he could become very nice. It is possible. Take anothe example: in the eyes of Ben Laden, America is hundred percent bad. This ignorance creates catastrophy. For Ben Laden, the wole western world is anti muslim. Particularly America that attacks so many countries. So he decides he has a real enemy, independant. It is a false view on reality.

                He should see America is a part of the Arab world, that they are interdependant. And not only America. In western europe, you hear critics of the muslims that have settled there. But of course America and Europe are not hundred percent anti muslim. So it is a mental projection, a narrow view, a mistake. Interdependant vision is vaster. There is nothing real to be attached to. It reduces attachment because there is no object to be attached to. Our desire, our craving for objects and beings is reduced."

                " When human emotions lack control, the best part of our brain, the part for judgement, can not be used. Of course, some conflicts, some differences will always exist. But we must use differences in a positive manner, trying to draw energy from the different opinions. Try to reduce violence, not by using force, but by using consciousness, respect and dialogue."

                It seems president Bush and a part of America is not considering using dialogue... And that they want to kill the children they have raised, without acknowledging they created them.

                Again, I question your perception. first you want to fantasize that you are in understading of (2 x ex) president of the united states, george bush, then yu want to claim that yu have equal or better prajna? Well, I dont think you do. I didn't hear him do anything except salute saddam's spirit and role in evolution, despite that when caught up with, with 'better' solutions , he lost by law fair and square buy that sole standard. It is youu that sees ppl seeing ppl negatively!
                Also, regarding your pm this morning, the third one of these btw, It is nOt my responsibilty to use langaugae you can understand. we've already soken about snot on unarabic translations o the koran. it is yourrr own resposibilty to learn the language you want to communicate with. if you dont and cant understand or rebuke because of it, then that's not only your own problem, but theee entire interracial drama in the first place.

                Saddam did some great things for assimilation progress and development of his nation.. it was his methods that were capped at enough, not his intention or good or badness. so his method ran it's course and exhausted it self. programs, like dna sequences, arre designed to do that. again with you and death fear b.s. @).

                how tf do you propose that spiritual guru bin laden, known to be in long term business cohort with the west, especially america sees not an ally but an enemy??

                chiiina and eeegypt have the oldest weapons history on the planet, ( no coincidence they are the eldest acknowledged civilisations on earth) before europe even, and again I find you extrapolating long winded emotive garbage that isn't even based on fact of history.

                as for interdependance, do you have aaany idea of george bush's personal history and affiliations in regard to the ancient free mason society .'one world nation' plans of that society?? of bloody tf course he knows the entire human population is interdependant on each other, and geogrpahically distributedly proportionately or otherwise.


                I see nothing but more violent dumb ignorance from you. I'm kind of sick and tired of it, but if that 's who you are, then you can bet we have inherent facility to f*cking deal with yor garbage.
                Also, I'm passing your pm's on to Doc and reporting you for your sick minded crap you keep putting in my inbox. I'm delirious and an accusing do I 'love you'?? how's get ****ed sound?


                you're not in politics professionally, or a sound long term financially secure situation or even have one you're working towards, are you. @).

                Doc does your kind of b.s. soo well. No wonder you two get on.

                Blooming tianshi lotus.
                Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-19-2008, 12:52 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                  5 When Israel is going to stop fueling islamist terrorism by using violence and refusing to abide to UN's resolutions? When will they learn to talk instead of killing?
                  I think they will "learn to talk" when they stop hearing stuff like this:

                  FOXNEWS: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad predicted that Muslims would uproot “satanic powers” and reaffirmed his prediction that the Jewish state will soon be wiped off the map, the Agence France-Presse news agency reported Monday.

                  "I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene," Ahmadinejad said.

                  "Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started," the hard-line president said....

                  Ahmadinejad has been forecasting the disappearance of Israel since taking office in 2005.
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                  (more comments in my User Profile)
                  russbo.com


                  Comment


                  • #69
                    What about a view on a middle way? Iran has responsabilities in violence and Israel has responsabilities in violence.

                    Doc, your analysis always seem to put the blame on arab and muslim countries. Why dont you hold a middle way?

                    Peace and love

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Actually, I do.

                      And I don't fault Islam. Well, not as much as you probably think I do.

                      You don't understand my style of writing. Yet. You haven't been here long enough. Sometimes, I do things for a reason....
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Think what u want but to let 6 million children die every year without medicine is a big figure.

                        So think about it. When Bin Laden says USA is the bigger terrorist on earth isn t there s ome truth in it ?

                        Why do you think he is mad and has no access to a  certain form of truth?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Here is some muslim thoughts. Would not stick to every thing he says, but interesting reading it.

                          "The Ultimate Conquest

                          By Ahmad Thomson

                          There are many ways of looking at a storm. There has to be thunder
                          and lightning before the gentle rain that sustains everything can
                          fall. The real purpose behind the storm that led to the Afghan
                          invasion has been to secure the rich oil fields in the Caucasus and
                          Southern states of the former USSR. Just as the USA armed Saddam
                          Hussein and his men to fight Iran and then used him as a pretext to
                          precipitate the Gulf War so that they could establish military
                          control over the oil fields in the Middle East, so they armed Osama
                          Bin Laden and his men to fight Russia and used him as a pretext to
                          precipitate the Afghan War. The purpose was to establish military
                          control over the oil fields in the Caucasus and former southern
                          states of the USSR -and also limit the nuclear capability of Pakistan
                          and India in the process. The next anticipated phase of occupation
                          and control of oil wealth would most probably be Somalia and Sudan,
                          followed by Malaysia and Indonesia, all of Course in the name of
                          the 'War against Terrorism'.

                          It should be remembered that it was America that precipitated the
                          Russian invasion of Afghanistan in the first place. After the
                          takeover by Khomeini in Iran, the Americans moved their military
                          listening posts from Iran to Turkey ?so, as a Counter-move Russia
                          moved down into Afghanistan, and within a week the CIA were arming
                          and training the mujahideen in Afghanistan, including Osama Bin
                          Laden. So all the terror that has resulted in Afghanistan from,
                          firstly, the Russian invasion and then, secondly, the American
                          invasion, traces directly back to American foreign policy.
                          America's economy is not only dependent on cheap oil, but also on
                          producing and selling expensive armaments, -hence the need for
                          foreign theatres of war in which such armaments can be tested and
                          sold. In the process many innocent people have been murdered, of whom
                          many were believers. To those who have this blood on their hands, -
                          whether as a result of blowing up people in the World Trade Centre,
                          or as a result of blowing up people in Afghanistan, or for that
                          matter, as a result of blowing up people in Palestine, Bosnia,
                          Kosovo, Chechenia, Kashmir, or anywhere else in the world, -I would
                          draw their attention to the following:

                          " As for anyone who kills a Mu'min deliberately, his repayment is
                          Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever. Allah is angry with him
                          and has cursed him, and has prepared for him a terrible punishment."
                          (Quran,4:92)

                          `Amr ibn al-' As said, "I came to the Prophet [sws] and
                          said, 'Stretch out your right hand so that I may pledge my allegiance
                          to you. He stretched out his right hand, but I withdrew my hand. He
                          said, 'What is the matter with you O 'Amr?' I replied, 'I want to
                          make a condition.' He asked, 'What condition do you want to make?' I
                          replied, 'That I should be granted forgiveness. ' He said, 'Do you not
                          know, Amr, that entering Islam wipes out all previous (wrong
                          actions), that making Hijra wipes out all previous (wrong actions)
                          and that doing the Hajj wipes out all previous (wrong actions)?"'
                          {Sahih Muslim, 1.55.220)

                          My prayer for those who have this blood on their hands, -and this
                          includes the ones who gave the orders as well as those who carried
                          them out, whether from 20,000 feet or 20,000 miles -is that they turn
                          to Allah for forgiveness. Although in the midst of the storm this
                          might seem unimaginable, we know that Allah is capable of such
                          miracles.

                          I am reminded of the Mongol invasions, when Ghengis Khan described
                          himself as the 'Wrath of God' and his forces swept all before them.
                          As they approached the Muslim world, people asked, "How can we stop
                          such people?" The wisest of the 'ulama replied, "Open your doors to
                          them, welcome them and feed them. " Within three generations, the
                          Mongols had accepted Islam.

                          Only Allah knows the future, and Allah is the best of planners. Our
                          faith and hope should remain so strong that we should not be at all
                          surprised if the forces of the oil Moghuls who have tried to overcome
                          the Muslims end up being overcome by Islam. Although they may refuse
                          to accept such a possibility, we know what they don't: La ghalib
                          il'Allah -that "there is no conqueror except Allah."
                          "

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Interesting commentary, kind of comical:

                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


                            Comment


                            • #74
                              But Islam is more than just a religion. It's a complete way of life, with very strict rules of behaviour which must be adhered to by everyone, often on pain of death.

                              Also, it has managed to capitalise on the anger, poverty and ignorance in the Third World by giving people meaning and structure in their lives.

                              As a result, it now controls a large mass of volatile primitive opinion which is quick to take offence and easily moved to senseless violence.


                              I think it is a good social analysis. The inequali ties that western capitalism create are being used  by religious beliefs to offer a hope that capital ism hardly provides. Create wealth and equality, z en religious dogmas wont be so strong. Let s be a  little marxist about this.

                              Also this Mr Pondell points out that Saudi Arabia  is funding radical islam. I thought it was US's al ly. Isnt it a bit of a contradiction? I wonder why  the US cares about human rights in china but not  in saudi arabia.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The US "cares" about human rights in China, because China doesn't supply the US with a shitload of oil every month.

                                And trying to convince the Wahabee's that they need to change, is just going to be absolutely impossible. At least you can negotiate and deal with the Chinese.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X