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  • #31
    Forgive me for giving in this conversation I left one year ago or so

    I belive that to understand Islam you need to look at it under at least 2 different angles:

    -What it IS now or how it is widely represented: blood hungry beasts who live with one purpose, destroying anyone who doesn't adhere to the Chariah law:

    EX1:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410


    Easy to fall for it...The sad music, the horror shown, the hand picked quotes from pseudo translations of the verses...

    -What it WAS (historically) at the time of Mohamed in a society composed of an incredible mix of different polytheist religions and in times of incredible violence. We find passages of conquests made by the prophet which are no more shocking than the conquest of David or Salomon in the old testament.

    I did some research, and found this page really representative of how different verses can be interpreted differently and how it is important to be aware of the historical context of the birth of an idea, regardless of the religion or philosophy investigated.

    EX2:



    Then, you still find these as well, which it is important to remember, represent a very small proportion of the millions of Muslims scattered around the world (Muslims don't only live in Irak, Iran and Afghanistan as the medias tend to show, and they don't all wish to slaughter any living non Muslim).

    EX3:



    That's it, just wanted to illustrate this point...I have no conclusion on this...I personally have something against any form of extremism...As soon as the word is taken for the word and the mass is not given the opportunity to step back from it and analyse it a minimum, it will lead to extremism, for Christians, Jews, Buddhists...and Muslims!

    Peace

    Flow
    The East? The West?

    Men and Women, that's all...

    Comment


    • #32
      From Fox News, some interesting outpourings:

      A sermon last Friday by a prominent Muslim cleric and Hamas member of the Palestinian parliament openly declared that "the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital," would soon be conquered by Islam.

      The fiery sermon, delivered by Yunis al-Astal and aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV, predicted that Rome would become "an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe."

      "Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion," al-Astal preached, "so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security and consolidation of power, and even to conquests through da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

      "Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesized by our prophet Muhammad," he added.

      Al-Astal last June preached how it was the duty of Palestinian women to martyr themselves by becoming homicide bombers.

      "The most exalted form of jihad is fighting for the sake of Allah, which means sacrificing one's soul by fighting the enemies head-on, even if it leads to martyrdom," he said in a June 23, 2007 interview.

      "When jihad becomes an individual duty, it applies to women too, because women do not differ from men when it comes to individual duties," he said, calling Jews "the brothers of apes and pigs" who should "taste the bitterness of death."

      Friday's rant repeated that theme: "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.

      "I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them.

      "Today, we instill these good tidings in their souls – and by means of the mosques and the Koran books, and the history of our Prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire at whose brink they stand."
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      • #33
        I dont know much but living in Paris, I ve met quite a lot of muslims that are not extremists.

        Why dont you see it the other way and speak how the israelian state kills and threatens innocent muslims? Or how the russian army acted towards muslim tchetchens? Where does USA stand to condamn Israel? Do you think Bin Laden is completly mad or that there is some truth when he says the muslim community is persecuted? And what about the muslims killed by the Serbs during the yugoslavian war?

        At work, i was talking with a muslim friend about extremists in Israel and Palestine. Zen suddenly a jewish came and hits us because we were talking about Israel in a way he didnt like.

        Dont look at one side of the coin, there are many extremists on both sides. And Israel people vote for killing innocent people. Is this martial art or barbarism? And again when does the USA condemn Israel? And i dont event talk about supported dictature of Chile since a less famous 9/11. Do the people in power in the USA have changed? Why not talk about it?

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        • #34
          "Islam is a religion that negates Christ and its goal is to conquer the world by using violence (...) The fact is that America was created, in a part, with the goal to destroy this false religion" Rod Parsley, a religious man from Ohio, doesnt make a mistery of its hostlility to islam. Neither to the fact that he supports John McCain. And McCain serves him right by qualifying the preacher as a "spiritual guide".

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          • #35
            From the Koran. Read these carefully:

            X/5:
            Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

            VIII/12:
            When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger [1].

            VIII/36:
            Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell.

            IX/5:
            Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

            IX/28:
            O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
            IX/73:
            Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's-end.

            XCVIII/6:
            Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

            X/5:
            Unto Him is the return of all of you; it is a promise of Allah in truth. Lo! He produceth creation, then reproduceth it, that He may reward those who believe and do good works with equity; while, as for those who disbelieve, theirs will be a boiling drink and painful doom because they disbelieved.

            LXIX/30-37:
            (It will be said): Take him and fetter him And then expose him to hell-fire And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in Allah the Tremendous, And urged not on the feeding of the wretched, Therefore hath he no lover here this day, Nor any food save filth Which none but sinners eat.

            LXVIII/14-16:
            It is because he is possessed of wealth and children That, when Our revelations are recited unto him, he saith: Mere fables of the men of old. We shall brand him on the nose.

            LXVII/6:
            And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the doom of hell, a hapless journey's end!

            XLVII/12:
            Lo! Allah will cause those who believe and do good works to enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; while those who disbelieve take their comfort in this life and eat even as the cattle eat, and the Fire is their habitation.

            XLIV/43-50:
            Lo! the tree of Zaqqum [2], The food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies As the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. (Saying): Taste! Lo! thou west forsooth the mighty, the noble! Lo! this is that whereof ye used to doubt.

            XXXVII/67-68:
            And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water And afterward, lo! their return is surely unto hell.

            V/33-34:
            The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

            V/72-73:
            They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah bath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

            XXII/19-22:
            These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.
            Ever find anything like this in the Bible? To this degree?
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            • #36
              More commentary from the Koran, referring to its comments as to what to do with "unbelievers".

              "It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6).

              "God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).

              A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).

              They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).

              "God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

              "They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

              "God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

              "The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

              "They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).

              "Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).

              "[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).

              "The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).

              "Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).

              "But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).

              "They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).

              "The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172).

              "Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).

              "How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176).

              "Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . [i]f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2:190–93).

              "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).

              "They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217–18).

              "God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258).

              "God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264).

              "The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2:270).

              "God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).

              "Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).

              "As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).

              "Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12).

              "The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).

              "Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).

              "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).

              "If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).

              "Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).

              "Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).

              "Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3:169).

              "Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178).

              "Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195–96).

              "God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46).

              "God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).

              "Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55–56).

              "Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (5:57).

              "That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).

              "God does not guide the unbelievers" (5:67).

              "That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (5:69).

              "You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We are Christians'" (5:80–82).

              "[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (5:86).

              "[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5).

              "We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: ‘This is but plain sorcery.' They ask: ‘Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muhammad]?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5–8).

              "Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (6:21).

              "Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: ‘This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say: ‘Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 6:23–27).

              "But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (6:29).

              "Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (6:35).

              "Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (6:39)

              "[T]heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (6:43–45).

              "[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (6:49).

              "Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (6:70).

              "Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say: ‘Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (6:93).

              "Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy: the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6:107–12).

              "The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6:121–25).

              "If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6:125).
              I do appreciate the fact that most of the Muslims I have met, and I have met many here in Thailand, are peaceful and nonviolent. I also appreciate the fact that most of them are highly uneducated, and I've noticed that when stressed, they fall back on what they know the best.

              And what they know the best is the Koran. What they lack in regular modern education, they make up for with religious study at their local mosque.

              What their book says, is at times, frightening.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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              • #37
                Oh, and by the way, if you haven't figured it out, we Americans are considered to be "unbelievers".

                They probably throw you Chinese into the same pit as us. I know that the Xinjiang province residents have been an issue there in the past.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                • #38
                  never read it before. thanks for this.
                  ZhongwenMovies.com

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                  • #39
                    My girlfriend is Armenian, and was born in Iraq. She is Christian Orthodox, but is studying many languages and she is a linguist as well. She has told me that traditionally the Q'uran is only to be read in Arabic because of the high possibility of mistranslation. Although I do not doubt that what you quoted Doc is what's in the Q'uran, perhaps we lose some specific meanings that are underlying the text that us Westerners do not see because we cannot read it in Arabic.

                    Terrorists notwithstanding of course....
                    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                    • #40
                      sure looks like that was an interesting period of time -- almost like witchcraft.

                      eeeehehehehehee......i'll get you my pretty....!!!!!!!! and your little dog, toooo!!!!!!!!! weeeh heeee heheheeee.. :-)

                      think i'm gonna have nightmares. lol....
                      ZhongwenMovies.com

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Fa Hui View Post
                        My girlfriend is Armenian, and was born in Iraq. She is Christian Orthodox, but is studying many languages and she is a linguist as well. She has told me that traditionally the Q'uran is only to be read in Arabic because of the high possibility of mistranslation. Although I do not doubt that what you quoted Doc is what's in the Q'uran, perhaps we lose some specific meanings that are underlying the text that us Westerners do not see because we cannot read it in Arabic.

                        Terrorists notwithstanding of course....

                        yeh, interesting. I haven't read it before neither.

                        Fa hui. Is there a particular piece of scripture that says that it should only be read in arabic? a link to an english translation to it would be nice if you have one? :-).

                        It never fails not to fascinate the hell out of me, how things change in transmigration from translation to translation, and pending what I believe is level dharmic understanding, how different things come off.

                        dharma is dharma in any language though, right??


                        I'm sure my dad has pretty old fire and brimstone biblic pasasges similar. if I ever work up to asking, i'll let you know which ones they are. actually, my little brother might know. he has a web site with an audio version he recorded and an accompanying script. he miight recall a cpl of lines I can pass on.

                        that up there makes disbelievers sound like vile ingorant retardsville pig scum really pending on how you look at it, doesn't it. fancy not wanting to kill them all though if thaat was how they're perceived @).
                        islamic tolerance, huh?

                        well dandy.



                        Blooming tianshi lotus.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                          Fa hui. Is there a particular piece of scripture that says that it should only be read in arabic? a link to an english translation to it would be nice if you have one? :-).
                          I have no idea, sorry.
                          "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                          "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                          "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Fa Hui View Post
                            My girlfriend is Armenian, and was born in Iraq. She is Christian Orthodox, but is studying many languages and she is a linguist as well. She has told me that traditionally the Q'uran is only to be read in Arabic because of the high possibility of mistranslation. Although I do not doubt that what you quoted Doc is what's in the Q'uran, perhaps we lose some specific meanings that are underlying the text that us Westerners do not see because we cannot read it in Arabic.

                            Terrorists notwithstanding of course....
                            That's true. And there in lies the problem.

                            Few Islamists nowadays know or understand the Arabic of fifteen hundred years ago. No one knows for sure what the exact wordings are; the message of the Koran back then might have been a little (or a lot) different.

                            But it is the tranalation, or the understanding, of these days, that is being taught. There is a large group of people, maybe even the majority of Muslims nowadays, that are interpreting the Kuran using modern translational skills; not using the Arabic of centuries ago. Imagine, reciting the Koran in Arabic at your local mosque, and not really knowing what you're saying because you don't understand the Arabic grammar of 600 AD. The Jews, with their Torah, do not have a similar problem as afar as I know.

                            So, is what I posted a misinterpretation of the Koran? Maybe, and probably.

                            Is what I posted, the understanding that is being taught all over the world?

                            Yes.

                            Kind of comical in a way, isn't it?
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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                            • #44
                              Well if you read tantric texts or even some Mahayna scriptures there is also a lot of hell and destruction promised to the sinners. The Kalachakra tantra and its myth of the shambala warriors is not so peaceful and kind of promise to destroy the muslims.

                              Arabia is a tough region and its language is harsh. So to the sinners great maledictions are promised, what so special about this?

                              And of course yes, you americans are seen as unbelievers, that is to say sinners. How many dictatures in the world have you supported from Chile to Iran? You dont think america is a sinner? Well if you dont, it seems the propaganda in America is as high as in China.

                              You complain about what you create. If you didnt support the dictature of the Shah of Iran would they be so fanatics nowdays and calling you Satan? If Israel and its american ally would not kill so many civilians and children in Palestine would there be many so many extremists? Remember that the israelian army has killed more people than the terrorists?

                              Use emptiness to see Islam's fanatism, they are a mirror of the western and israelian violence. Many muslims i know in France hold a middle way, that is to say violence should not generate violence, but western, israelian and muslim violence must be recognized. The Koran blames the killing of innocents.

                              Doc you say what you post is the interpretation taught in the world. In France it is not at all the violent understanding that is taught. Why be so dramatic? I dont know about the rest of the world, but it seems america is very ignorant about the reality of islam.

                              Take another example Darfur and Sudan. The common view in the west is that Khartoum is bad and its chinese allies are bad. But if you come in China or make a little more research, you will hear the claim that US supports the rebel armies. Is this non violence? And that Chad also supports rebels in the south. Whereas Chad is not seen as a good land for human rights, France would still support it...

                              Also that it exists muslim violence is good for right wing politics and weapon sellers. Dont they have interest to create violence and fear? By this thread you also fuel fear.

                              It is often easier to criticize the other than oneself. so why dont you discuss the violence of USA and Israel in this thread?
                              Last edited by liutangsanzang; 05-12-2008, 07:42 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                                In France it is not at all the violent understanding that is taught. Why be so dramatic? I dont know about the rest of the world, but it seems america is very ignorant about the reality of islam.
                                No, in France it's not violent.

                                That's why there are areas in Paris, Muslim and immigrant areas, that the French police won't patrol for fear of getting hurt. Kind of like the bad sections in New York that I used to work in (Bedford Stuyvesant, Harlem, not exactly the top ten list for cops back in the 70's). That's why ever few months we see cars in Paris burning on television, because their unemployed, and Arab, immigrants, whose population growth now surpasses the native French, get pissed off at not getting enough free benefits from the French socialized system France has a huge problem.

                                As does Sweden, Holland, Britain and some other European countries. Which is why some of these countries have now "shut their borders", making it very difficult for people to immigrate.

                                Are you in China? Do you watch Chinese CCTV?
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                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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