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  • #16
    well, Xiao hong Quan is very very basic. So, i could always see why that was learned first. I remember you told me once you learned da hong first where you were training. I guess either one makes sense since alot of the movements are similar.
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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    • #17
      I always hear that, "XHQ is a very basic quan"..

      The movements of the form are not very difficult, but is it that basic as a fighting system?
      I know some applications of it, but is there anybody here who studied Hong quan in dept?

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      • #18
        seems to me that the more i dabble in XHQ the more push-hands like the applications seem. looks like theres a lot of wrapping and arm trapping in there.

        Contact-->deflect/redirect--->strike

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        • #19
          The form is taught first, and then the applications, though sometimes, through practice of the form, and experimentation in application, applications which were once hiddden to most people, will show themselves.

          people like iron cross who assume that the monks dont even know the applications to the forms that they have mastered after years of training, well, they just dont know what they're talking about.

          id like to see you challenge a monk iron cross, and see what happens.

          gee am i being an ass again? hee haw...
          "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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          • #20
            I'll challenge one....
            "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

            "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

            "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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            • #21
              my bet's on IC lol

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              • #22
                Sorry just my experience with most of the ones ive seen. They teach the forms and thats it. when it comes to fighting that seems to be a completely seperate class. instead of breaking the forms down and teaching the application and praciticng them in real time it has boiled down to just sanda...

                I never did understand the idea that after years and eyars of practicing you will just figure the applicaitons out one day. thats not only a colosal waste of time its completely absurd. Ive seen guys practice these forms for eyars on end, some as long as 4-6 years, and yet be completely taken back when ive said to them "i read online that this move does this". Their response was usually along the lines of "Wow your so right how come I never thought of that"

                It would be interesting to see myself fighting a "shaolin monk" thats for sure. I am rather strong thats for sure. I mean when i was training at shaolin my 2 nicknames were Juggernaut and Iron Cross. the first basically coming form when we did pad drills. the second from some really strange conversation I had with this guy there once. that and I do conditioning on the rings and hold the iron cross position as part of my routine. aside from that i really dont know what to say. I dont train for fighting. I train sport wushu and acrobatics. i may be strong and agile but i really dont train to fight. i guess if i really wanted to in 6 months i could be ready.

                Still, it makes me think of something else related to this conversation. are the applications in these forms even meaningful anymore? I'm one to believe in a Darwinian model for most things. That is the best of whats available will trump the inferior things. In terms of martial arts this basically means techniques, training routines and styles. If these applications are very effective its my understanding they would still be widely used by people all over everywhere and not simply moved to a more lets say ceremonial position. If the application of xiao hong, da hong and tong bei were so effective wouldnt it stand to reason that militaries and police forces around teh world would be teaching these forms to their soliders hours a day for years on end?

                One can easily see that training has become more effective now and new and effective techniques have replaced older ones. I was actually in the book store yesterday reading this book about the science of fitness or something. I honestly forget the title. I was actually tempted to buy it. anyways... there was a graph showing the decrease in the top run times for the mile for men and women over the last several decades. the drop was rather significant. the difference being better training, nutrition and understanding of body mechanics that we have today.

                It would be insane for a top athlete to suddenly say he was going to take on a completely traditional 1920's training program for his olympic push. namely if the training of the past was so superior it would still be used today.

                in a way this applies to the martial arts. think how much they have changed in the past 20 years alone. at this point i dont think it even matters to talk about applications in these forms because not only to these guys not know them. BUT they are even practical in the modern world to begin with. if they were we might be seeing some xiao hong quan master tearing up the UFC with his skill. sadly we dont.

                Actually, i remember seeing a video of a traditional kung fu guy in some MMA thing. He had the traditinal outfit on and everything. odds are he was a very good martial artist. he did seem to have some skill. still, he got his ass handed to him in about 15 seconds. when i was watching this i remember thinking this guy looks like he is 100 years behind the times.
                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                • #23
                  Lol Fa, id bet on you against a monk too!

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                  • #24
                    Thanks man
                    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Iron Cross
                      If the application of xiao hong, da hong and tong bei were so effective wouldnt it stand to reason that militaries and police forces around teh world would be teaching these forms to their soliders hours a day for years on end?
                      Well, I think this always depends on the goal you are training for. Soldiers don`t have time to spend years on training "traditional" martial arts. They have to be ready in, lets say, one year. So in many of the systems used by military and police they have adopted very simple techniques that can be excecuted under a lot of stress.

                      A lot of time is spend on the mental part of an engagement, or overall principles which can be used in all kinds of situations. Less is spend on difficult technique, since this takes a lot of time. Not just to learn properly, but also to be locked up in your system, so that you can use them automatically in a stressful situation, like a fight.
                      Forms were never developed to teach you how to fight. They are for physical excercise, preserving the techniques through the years and perhaps an active form of meditation.
                      So there`s not many use for soldiers to practise forms.

                      Most martial artist, DO have the time to spent so many years on learning technique, well they should take this time ...
                      They also practise for different reasons, than just combat, so this way the practise of forms can be useful.

                      Also, ofcourse the techniques in sports sanda is different(or modified) from the technique in the Quan. In the ring many stuff that you may not do or can not do.

                      This said, these techniques are developed by many generations of masters, so I think we should preserve this heritage. Without the practise of applications, the form is just an empty shell.
                      Ofcourse there`s nothing wrong with only practising the form, without the 2-person practise.
                      I just feel its too bad, many people practise forms on one hand, and then when they want to learn how to fight, they turn to some other, 'modern' system.

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                      • #26
                        Ok I can see your point there. I think its a valid one too. However, I would argue that are not only more effective, as they have built off the past techniques into newer more practical ones, but also quciker and easier to learn. While its true that martial artists have years to spend learning skills and techniques as we do devote our lives to doing so, would it not make sense to use the tiem we have to the utmost.

                        Someone could practice the traditional sets and forms for 5-10 years with utmost dedication and emerge as a strong and capable fighter. Also someone could spend 6 months to a year training one of the more modern systems that has come up and also be a capable fighter. If the two people here were completely equal in skill the traditional guy has still lost because it took him so much longer to learn and achieve what he has. Using newer more advanced training methods and approaches to training one could achieve so much more in the same period of time, advancing his/her skill to new levels once thought impossible. Just as the runners example I gave before. To stay competative runners are always trying to develop new training methods and routines to out do their competiton. The same could be said for martial arts. In a way developing a system that can be taught to a soldier ina few months and still make them a very capable fighter IS an improvement over the traditional sets for the same reason. If your a pure martial artist not only could you advance your skills very far in a short time frame but also have many years ahead of you while your still in the prime of your life to further tune your abilities or even think of new ones or new ways to train thus taking you even farther.

                        If we all refused to let go of the traditional training method it would still be an impressive feat for world class athletes to run a 6 minute mile. by todays standards thats nothing. its true we should remember the past but not live in it.
                        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                        • #27
                          Yes, i agree its very positive to keep improving methods and use new insights. Probably shaolin temple has seen many changes in 1500 years as well right?

                          But I just don`t think we have to get rid of the old method all the way for that. I don`t know about the U.S., but in Chinese military and police force they practice forms(new ones, I guess) with the corresponding 2-person practise.

                          So perhaps xiao hong technique would not be the best option for battlefield preparation. We can still learn from its principles and put them in a modern setting. The human body is still the same as in the time XHQ was developed (except for some steroid mutants.. ). Same levers, pressure points and everything.

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                          • #28
                            I think we tend to agree with each other for the most part. I guess in the end it boils down to personal prefrence. I guess if any of us actually get into a fight someday we will know if our training has been effective or not.
                            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              a person who trains for ten years learns, studies, and practices gongfu as a way of life. the person who trains for six months learns to fight. herein lies the difference. but, as you say, it is a matter of preference.

                              another important aspect is the tradition that is being passed down from teacher to student. the teacher to student transmission, as it were.
                              ZhongwenMovies.com

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