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Thread: Kagyu buddhism (Tibetan Buddhism)

  1. #11
    Dear friend, i ll try to answer you.

    First i m really quite used to tibetan buddhism. I even took my boddhisattva vows under the Dalai Lama in 2000 in Bodhgaya. And i ve spent some time with tibetans in India and China.

    Ypu ask me if there is enlightnment. This i dont know. Many people claim so, to be awaken but are they really? In tibet you would meet many living buddhas but are they really or is it just religious propaganda?
    And if the Powa worked many lamas would have gone to AMitaba's paradise and receive precious teaching. So why would they keep their people like slaves until the chinese came?

    Tsok. Why did the karmapa ask that there would be no meat if it was ok before. I know high lamas are so high that when they kill it is blessing. Let me doubt this.

    I might look form the outside but believe me i practiced quite a bit. Remember the last retreat i made was 37 days at a Kagyu temple. You say i look at the deities and do not see the compassion. Well my point is that is very special to tantrism to have so many wrathful deities holding so many weapons. Their might be compassion in killing but it can easily misunderstood and i believe many lamas have misunderstood it. Including for instance the 5 dalai lama. But that s just a guess, i do not hold it as truth.

    By the way you say tibetan buddhist do not worship gods but you just say they paint deities.

    U say the muslim communities is not in Tibet any more and that the chinese killed them all. I am afraid it is tibetan propaganda. I ve seen news recently where you could see a muslmim imam in Tibet. U say most tibetans are mostly vegetarians. I think you idealize Tibet, that s what a lot of westerners do, because they dream of a kind of spiritual paradise. In my opinion the vast majority of tibetans are not at all veg. And i ve seen many lamas eat meat. If it wouldnt be so why the Karmapa asked to become veg? U say the DL has been vegetarian most his life until recently. I have different informations on that. And i read his problem was liver. Illusions, illusions. Tibetans are very good at creating illusions.

    As for the Trimondi site, take some times to read it. It does not come from China but from Germany and this people have beem acquointed with the Dl for a while. It is a critical approach.

    U say the DL was about to open the country. How do you know that? Why the 13 DL didnt do so and abolish slavery?

    I dont want to put down tibetan buddhism, i just try to be realistic and critical about it. DOubt is the essence of philosophy.

    Take the guru yoga practice for instance. It has its merits but one should not forget his critical mind in the process. And some lamas abuse the position.

    Yours in non violence towards every sentient being
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    \DOubt is the essence of philosophy.
    Finally. Something I have to agree with you on.

    Nice observation.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Djonma View Post
    OK a couple of comments.
    BTL, the stuff used to preserve things nowadays isn't the same as Egyptian Mummy preservations.
    Nowadays we use formalin mostly for preservations that allow us to see the items and study them. Formalin is a diluted form of formaldehyde, and that is anything but natural, being synthesides in the 1800's.
    Mummy preservation was done using Cedar sap and other things, mostly cedar sap.



    Djon Ma

    So this guy http://www.bond.edu.au/contact/profile.asp?s_id=201 who just yesterday told our entire lecture class this, is wrong???
    He was quite specfic, btw.

    another know it all extrapolator. excellent value.

    Blooming tianshi lotus.
    "honestly girls dont seem to want anything other then whatever they want "atm" then that can always change:"
    maestro's love genius.

    first we work to live, then we live to work, ..& then when someone else can do it good enough without us - we can all run off and die.
    Blooming tianshi lotus

    "find something & thatd turn me on.." drahillionaire, warren buffet.

    'if you keep going, eventually you get there' chuck norris

  4. #14
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    No idea, BLT.
    I don't study health, forensic science, or egyptology.
    I know there was a massive breakthrough recently when a load of experts discovered that it wasn't juniper sap, as thought previously, used to preserve mummies, it was in fact cedar sap.
    And I know that Formaldehyde was first synthesised in the 1800's.
    I just kind of put two and two together.


    Liu; you don't believei in enlightenment?
    How are you a Buddhist then?
    Especially a Tibetan Buddhist.
    The very refuge prayer says that you take refuge until enlightenment.

    "In Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, I take Refuge until enlightenment.
    By the merit of giving, and so on, may I acheive enlightenment for the benefit of all beings."

    (You may see other translations, that's the one my Sangha uses).

    As part of Tibetan practice, we say that at the beginning of every Sadhana (prayer kind of).

    I'm confused as to how you can be Buddhist and not believe in Enlightenment.
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

    And not many people claim to be enlightened, but mostly their followers claim it.
    I believe my Lama and his Lama are enlightened. It's part of being Buddhist really; if you can't truly believe your Lama is enlightened, why would you study from him?

    This is quite a difficult discussion now, the way it's going. You've been very antagonistic about Kagyu School, yet you're talking a lot about HH Dalai Lama, who is Gelug school. Being Kagyu, I've not really studied the history of the Dalai Lamas. I just know a bit, so I can't really comment much. You probably know a lot more than I do about them.

    And no, we do not worship Gods.
    Deity is a bad translation perhaps.
    We say Deity a lot, but they are Bodhisattvas.
    Not Gods.

    I'm glad there's a Muslim community in Tibet again. All I know is what I've been told. That's all anyone can ever know.
    I was told that they were wiped out early on in the invasion.

    By saying Tibetans were mostly vegetarian, I didn't mean most people, I meant all were mostly vegetarian. They eat a bit of meat here and there, but it's nothing like western meat eaters who stuff themselves with far too much meat for the body.
    Like I said; with the altitude in most of Tibet, you need to eat meat for the body to survive.

    I don't have an issue with anyone eating meat.
    I know plenty of Buddhists who eat meat.

    I choose not to.

    HH Karmapa has now decided that eating meat is bad for us, and so he asked that we not do so, and so many Kagyupas have stopped eating meat if they did so before.
    But he is only a Kagyu lama, others may listen to him, but do not have to follow his advice.

    I thought it was HHDL's heart that was the problem, because I discussed it with my Dad who also has major heart problems, and we talked about him maybe starting eating a bit of meat every now and then to help. But he doesn't want to, and he doesn't have altitude to worry about.
    Though I've just looked at google and it turns out HHDL had jaundice problems without meat, so you're probably right. I know he has heart problems too, maybe I mixed the two up.
    My mind is not that great.
    It wasn't Tibetans creating illusions. It's easy to mix things up, especially old information.

    I will read that site, but it won't be straight away; I'm in the middle of moving house, so everything is taking time, sorry.
    But I will read it.

    HHDL says he was going to open the country up. HH 13th DL had started the process.
    He couldn't finish it because he died.
    But he'd visited the west, and was wondering how to open a country up that had been closed and insular for so long.
    It's not easy to do such a thing and not have the country experience culture shock. And, for the rest of the world to not think Tibet was horribly backward, which they probably would have done, as it really was at the time.

    It sounds like you have a big problem with some of the things in Tibetan Buddhism. The things you're asking, I can't answer though.
    I'm not a Lama.
    I don't live in Tibet and never have.
    I'm just an ordinary person trying to find answers to life like the rest of us.
    It doesn't help that I've probably not conveyed things very well. I have dyspraxia, so I find explaining things quite difficult, and sometimes I mess it up and confuse people.

    Doubt is one of the most useful tools we have, never feel bad for using it.

    It seems like you should ask a lama these questions though, especially if you still practice.

    And there will always be Lamas who abuse positions. For myself, I don't believe they're true Lamas; they've lost any gains they had on the path by abusing their position. Next life they're in trouble!

    Djon Ma
    Karma Dechen Djon Ma
    "For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain, Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world."
    Shantideva

  5. #15
    Dear friend,
    currently i try to have no position whether i am a buddhist or not. I dont know if buddhism is true so how would i call myself a buddhist? And i dont know if it is untrue so how would i say i am not a buddhist?

    You can find roots for such an attitude in a famous theravada sutta called Kalama sutta, where Sakyamuni asks not to believe because of a tradition, a religion or a master but because of your own personal experience.

    The same goes with enlightnement. I dont know if it is true so how can i say i believe in it? But i also do not know it is untrue, so why not believe it?

    I know that in tibetan buddhism you have to see your lama has enlightened, as a representative of the buddha. It is very peculiar to Vajrayana. You do not have such claims in Theravada to my knowledge. In Theravada they insist on the "good friend".
    My question about this is: wasnt it made for religious propaganda? Remember that in Tibet the lamas were crucials in politics and everything was mixed, religion and politics. The Guru Yoga can have political and power goals.

    Your point about gods is interesting. The buddha is said to teach even gods.

    About meat eating i dont understand why this karmapa made such a move and not his preceding incarnation. How can one change so dramatically? And in the next incarnation, he will turn to meat again? Arent the lamas fooling us with this incarnation system? It might also have political roots.

    Anyway keep the compassion!
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  6. #16
    Doc,

    may i doubt you really doubt? For instance when you eat chicken or fish do you doubt you are doing the best thing in the world to serve non violence? Doubt is a wonderful and deep practice but is often not realized. Try this pratice when you eat chicken, it might lead you to absolute non violence.

    Djon Ma,
    about seeing the lama as enlightened, i think this practice has its beauty and danger. To see him as a representative of the buddha can help one's devotion and energy. But at the same time, if the lama is not enlightened why see him as enlightened? Again Tibetans spread illusions in place of reality.

    You also say that there is no real magic in vajrayana. But take the tsok offering of meat. How do you know you are going to liberate the animal by your prayers? Is it really rational belief.
    It is like the powa stories. They say the high lamas can kill people so to stop them from creating suffering and going to a realm where they can be taught. Isn t it some kind of magic? How do you rationally know it is true?
    And it is even quite contrary to the Theravada teaching of Angulimala sutta where a murderer is saved from death by the buddha in order to teach him.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....086.than.html

    Bloody-handed
    I used to be,
    renowned as Angulimala.
    See my going for refuge!
    Uprooted is [craving],
    the guide to becoming.

    Peace and love
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    1,102
    Quote Originally Posted by liutangsanzang View Post

    I know that in tibetan buddhism you have to see your lama has enlightened, as a representative of the buddha. It is very peculiar to Vajrayana. You do not have such claims in Theravada to my knowledge. In Theravada they insist on the "good friend".
    I wouldn't be too sure about that.
    I attended a lecture last night on Bodhisattvas given by a Lama travelling through here in Austin. A lot of the lecture involved the topic of enlightenment and a sort of 6 (could have been 7) point plan as to how one can attain it. after thinking a bit about what he was saying, I decided that I knew what my question was going to be for the Q&A.

    When it was my turn to ask a question, I verified with the lama (through his translator) that in Tibetan buddhism, there is a method or some kind of path that they believe is the path that leads to enlightenment, and that there is a path that an enlightened being would follow.
    I also verified that the Geshi (pron.?) knows and practices these paths.

    Then I asked him if he believes himself to be an enlightened being.

    The response to my question was partially predictable, but still rather interesting. He took the question like a champ. The rest of the audience looked at me as if I had just taken my pants off and waved my dick in his face.

    His initial response, as I suspected, was to reiterate that he practices the teachings of his religion- purity of mind speech and body, renunciation of the 6 delusions, following the 4 noble truths and such.

    So I said to the translator,

    "Then the Lama believes he follows the path to enlightenment, or possibly the path of a buddha?"

    He responded with a yes, and i followed up-

    "But is the Lama enlightened?"

    A couple of the audience chuckled at my insistence. The Lama himself took very kindly to my question, and took just a short moment before answering through his translator.

    "No. I do not believe so"

    I found that interesting. To be honest, I did not know what kind of answer I would get. I had actually doubted I would get a yes/no answer, so I was pleasantly surprised when he answered the way that he did.

  8. #18
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    great story, dog.....

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    Doc,

    may i doubt you really doubt?
    I always doubt.

    In fact, if you read the site from over ten years ago, you'll find a regular quote from me in the forum. Advice I give to people all the time.

    "Always question".

    I give it to you now.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
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  10. #20
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    Liutansanzhang,


    Have you traveled much in Tibet? If so, was it a guided tour or were you able to travel there freely.

    Also, if it was not a guided tour, how did you manage to arrange something like that?

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