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  • #16
    Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    What do i do else but asking questions? Arent most plants and many animals vegetarians? Why not imitate? Why not get killed now? And if you want to get the traditional form of animals in Gong fu, why not turn to Yoga practice?

    why is it okay to eat plants?

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    • #17
      Anybody remember what the original question was?

      Amazing how these threads get hijacked.
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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      • #18
        Thread already got two pages long and not even one post responded to my question. Can we exercise more will control and focus here please. If you want to talk about vegetarian diets start a separate thread.

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        • #19
          The original question was : I am wondering are there any traditional animal forms being taught or has it all turned into wushu

          I try to answer in saying that if you want to learn the traditional form of animals you might turn to Yoga's imitation of animals including vegetarianism. If you imitate animals why not imitate their vegetarianism? This question also raises the place of animals in shaolin buddhist philosophy.

          Why be intolerant and not accept another form of answer that you might not express? Why do you choose to practice shaolin buddhist gongfu if you dont want to discuss vegetarianism and compassion for animals?

          BTL, why do you kind of insult me and put on so many affirmations? How do you know you are true? Arent you preaching, arent you being dogmatic?

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          • #20
            How many vegetarian animals of shaolin kungfu do YOu know of??

            Now, stfu and stay on topic.

            Blooming tianshi lotus.

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            • #21
              Strange enough, shaolin gong fu might not imitate so many vegetarian animals. Maybe because vegetarian animals such as the sacred cow or sheeps do not go into fights.

              But there are least two exceptions, the monkey and the dragon. In Chinese philosophy monkeys are seen as sages. That is why every little chinese kid has an hero: Sun Wu Kong, the wicked monkey king. Dragons are also important and they are believed to create earth quakes, such as the one that appeared in 1976, the year of Mao's death, which was dragon's year. By the way that year the 14 Dalai Lama was making an intense retreat and Mao died while he was giving the Kalachakra initiation for world peace. Though it is also very wicked of the dragon to kill so many innocent people and we need a lot of compassion for the victims. In buddhism, dragons are linked to the nagas spirits and are not so well seen. Buddha has to teach them compassion for the suffering of every living being.

              To go back to monkeys, it is a known fact that the Monkey king was a buddhist monk and a vegetarian. His gongfu was so strong that only the Buddha could stop him. Zen he found his masters namely Guan Yin Pusa and Tang Sanzang. The monkey king of gong fu masters were vegetarians. This you have to meditate when you practice monkey gong fu. It is a know fact of all shaolin practitioners and chinese kids.

              Was this on topic?
              Last edited by liutangsanzang; 05-15-2008, 08:26 AM.

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              • #22
                Much better. See, when you speak like thaat, I would consider it on topic. And might you have tried on life as the other 10 additionally to those two yourself?

                Besides, I thought what was the most well known about that story is that when tripitaka prayed on him he knew he was being wicked and behaved himself because it hurt too much.
                Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-15-2008, 08:38 AM.

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                • #23
                  Ok I see some people are being lost in all of this so I will make my question easier. Are they any traditional animal quans being thought in shaolin schools and if yes, what are they?

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                  • #24
                    Funny wording you use to ask with, but baring in mind that there are also animal applications and stances throughout forms, here you go .

                    read this http://members.ozemail.com.au/~kfmaster/history.htm

                    ALso bare in mind, that if you're asking with those words then you can also understand that any animal can be applied like that.

                    Blooming tianshi lotus.

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                    • #25
                      There are traditional, and not so traditional animal forms taught at Shaolin. What is taught at "Shaolin schools" all depends on who's teaching; the later generations tend to teach more wushu oriented stuff because that was what they were brought up on (they also might tend to depict it as "traditional" though it is not). The older generation monks, those who actually lived in the temple proper and had learned from the older Su and previous generation masters, know some of the older traditional things.

                      For example, there is a mantis form called Tong Long Chuan. It has the basic techniques that derive from the traditional "Seven Star Tong Long Chuan" (not sure if I remember the name correctly), but it is more stylsh. Many of the younger generation guys know and teach Tong Long Chuan (I have a slideshow of it on russboTV, and also in the Video library here, I think) as a "traditional" form. The older guys view it as an adaptation, and teach the Seven Star version as traditional. I've learned both; I've also forgotten both, so I can't describe the differences too well.

                      The newer Tong Long Chuan that is being taught is going to be influenced by the alteration in the jibengong (the basics). The basic moves have changed over the past ten years. Decheng was involved as a committee member in Dengfeng over the years, designing what these changes in the basics, and the forms, would be. The changes in the jibengong are significant, and they lose a lot of their combat applications. They are prettier to watch however. AS the forms are made up of these basics, of course the forms will alter. I have no idea what the current "Tong Long Chuan" looks like, I'll search it out on my next trip to Shaolin, which may be in a few months.

                      I'm not sure how some of the other animal stuff has "evolved" as my recent trips to Shaolin over the years have been more devoted towards television production work and less towards research and personal training. I'm hoping to change that shortly, as my health continues to improve.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                      • #26
                        Is mantis the only one?

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                        • #27
                          No, I've seen some different versions of the monkey form that is taught at Shaolin. These past few years, it has become more "wushuized", though not by much. Same can be said for Ying Chuan (eagle); what I leaned from Xing Xi back in 1999 is different from what I've seen in the past two years, but, then again, not by much. Just a little more acrobatic.

                          Then again, doc does nothing that's acrobatic. There were parts of Ying Chuan that I just avoided, though I think there was only one part. Same goes for Jiu Jie Bien (I never did the flying through the air shit. Never have, never will, LOL).

                          There are quite a few animal forms, Hou Chuan (Tiger), not sure how that has changed; there was a frog form that Xing Hong showed me back in 1998; I don't know if they're even practicing that now, as it's just not effective at all for competition. Some snake forms, again, I don't know if they've changed (never learned any).

                          The weapon forms that I learned back in the nineties are done with more acrobatics these days. Everything seems to be stylized a bit to make it look prettier. Even the famed Xiao Hong Chuan has changed quite a bit; leaving it's combat oriented roots to be more of a dance type routine.

                          Many changes, especially over the past seven or so years.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)
                          russbo.com


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by doc View Post
                            There are traditional, and not so traditional animal forms taught at Shaolin. What is taught at "Shaolin schools" all depends on who's teaching; the later generations tend to teach more wushu oriented stuff because that was what they were brought up on (they also might tend to depict it as "traditional" though it is not). The older generation monks, those who actually lived in the temple proper and had learned from the older Su and previous generation masters, know some of the older traditional things.

                            For example, there is a mantis form called Tong Long Chuan. It has the basic techniques that derive from the traditional "Seven Star Tong Long Chuan" (not sure if I remember the name correctly), but it is more stylsh. Many of the younger generation guys know and teach Tong Long Chuan (I have a slideshow of it on russboTV, and also in the Video library here, I think) as a "traditional" form. The older guys view it as an adaptation, and teach the Seven Star version as traditional. I've learned both; I've also forgotten both, so I can't describe the differences too well.

                            The newer Tong Long Chuan that is being taught is going to be influenced by the alteration in the jibengong (the basics). The basic moves have changed over the past ten years. Decheng was involved as a committee member in Dengfeng over the years, designing what these changes in the basics, and the forms, would be. The changes in the jibengong are significant, and they lose a lot of their combat applications. They are prettier to watch however. AS the forms are made up of these basics, of course the forms will alter. I have no idea what the current "Tong Long Chuan" looks like, I'll search it out on my next trip to Shaolin, which may be in a few months.

                            I'm not sure how some of the other animal stuff has "evolved" as my recent trips to Shaolin over the years have been more devoted towards television production work and less towards research and personal training. I'm hoping to change that shortly, as my health continues to improve.
                            Me too in terms of tonglong actually. but for me, locally, the only tong long master kind of has a different agenda to my sigung, and they go back too too far to mess with so I plan to take the same on my nxt trip back to shaoln instead.
                            I do believe that 7 star mantis is the crux of traditional mantis aswell, and that is really thee only mantis that I find being taught at shaolin, the rest, as you said, seeming to me to be polymorphistic of that, but, I believe loosing alot of the core jibengong, which is always my main bread and butter, because forms can be negotiated and made to suit.

                            Bih, if you dont know about much the animals ( forms and stances and fists, all different but the same concept over varying length jings or connection accents) and elements( regarding direction and tyype of force being applied, and even harmonious simultaneous combinations thereof and characteristics of those, 'statically' or otherwise), hence the reasoning why other animals can be used to express through, and the three training aspects that constitute shaolin kungfu, I highly recommend searching and finding out about it for yourself. It will tOtally revolutionise your entire understanding of just what shaolin kungfu is and how it works.
                            Happy studies.

                            Blooming tianshi lotus.
                            Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-15-2008, 09:47 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Our meditation topic works like the Headband tightening Mantra

                              As the thread came to an halt, i might post my own interpretation of animal forms in shaolin. If most animals practiced are not vegetarians, it might be linked to the fact that from killing for living comes fighting. A cow does not need to fight or kill. In that sense many violence instincts could be explained by flessh eating and killing.

                              Here is what Venerable Chan master Hsuan Hua writes about monkey:

                              " When we sit in meditation, we have to catch the little monkey. The human mind is like a wild horse. Our thoughts are restless and naughty as monkey. If we do not catch that monkey, it will just keep giving us the runaround. Our essence and spirit will be scattered and our energy source will become depleted to exhaustion. The energy source of the self nature is very precious. If it is depleted by the monkey for no rhyme or reason, then it is really not worth it. Now, we need to train the horse to obey instructions and tame the monkey so that it will be obedient. How do you do it? You need to tie on a golden headband amd then chant the Headband tightening Mantra. In the novel Journey to the West, as soon as Xuan Zhang, the Tang monk, chanted the Headband tightening Mantra, the monkey god, Sun Wu Kong, became very obedient.

                              What is our Headband tightening Mantra? The inquiry into 'who' in our meditation topic "Who is mindful of the Buddha?" will work. Use it and the monkeylike thoughts will become obedient. Since the monkey in our mind does not know who that 'who' is, it will concentrate single mindedly to search for it. Once our monkeylike thoughts quiet down, our mind will attentively concentrate in its search and our thoughts will no longer give us the runaround. If you can catch the monkey and tame it, then your skill is almost there ! "

                              Note that the nature of mind is compared to monkey and horse, both vegetarian animals.

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                              • #30
                                You are in need of some serious therapy or maybe some red meat. Please refrain from answering my posts in the future.

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