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  • #46
    A success in what way?
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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    • #47
      it was a success in that;

      1 they were able to declare war on iraq based on bullshit, the primary reason congress allowed us to go to war-

      In October, 2002, a few days before the U.S. Senate voted on the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq, about 75 senators were told in closed session that Saddam Hussein had the means of attacking the eastern seaboard of the U.S. with biological or chemical weapons delivered by unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).[39] On February 5, 2003, Colin Powell presented further evidence in his Iraqi WMD program presentation to the UN Security Council that UAVs were ready to be launched against the U.S. At the time, there was a vigorous dispute within the US military and intelligence community as to whether CIA conclusions about Iraqi UAVs were accurate.[87] In fact, Iraq's UAV fleet was never deployed and consisted of a handful of outdated 24.5-foot (7.5 m) wingspan drones with no room for more than a camera and video recorder, and no offensive capability.[88][89] Despite this controversy, the Senate voted to approve the Joint Resolution on 11 October 2002 providing the Bush Administration with the legal basis for the U.S. invasion

      all based on the WMD and the 9/11 scare, which IS bullshit imo

      2. it was a success in that they proved they could still control the population as a whole to do whatever they want, and do it easily considering there was no draft and people flocked to go kill iraqis

      3. they set up bases, that will not be going anywhere, anytime soon, they have more control of the middle east now then ever.

      4. btw none of this is really in order but, they(btw they are whoever u wanna imagine i suppose but they could just be the people with the most to gain or whomever) made mad money $$$$$$$ up the ass.

      5. they destroyed our economy, look at the friggin economy, anyone with money could control almost any corporation they want, the amount of debt average americans are in is ridiculous, people are going to work their entire lives just to stay alive and its only getting worse. these are all forms of control

      and what about the oil crisis, lets talk about the assload of coal we have and how easy it is to turn coal into energy. and what about all the PROOF of the banks and their roles in warfare throughout the last hundred years if not thousand, how they funded both sides of the world wars, korea and vietnam etc

      a success probably in more ways then i even know, rantings at 2 31 am lolo
      "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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      • #48
        Controlling the middle east is far more important than you can imagine. With the upsurge of Wahabbi Islam in Saudi Arabia, having US bases in the region is imperative. If you think oil is expensive now...

        And as for the WMD that Iraq may or may not have, remember two things.

        One, they did have WMD's in the early 90's.
        Two, Saddam got rid of them. But, he didn't tell anyone. Not even his generals. Saddam feared the Shiites in the south more than he feared the Iranians. In poker, it's called "the bluff".

        Sometimes "the bluff" gets you in deeper than you expect. "The bluff" got Saddam in a situation where the US invaded.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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        • #49
          9/11 was not "a joke". Believe what you will about how it all happened, but remember, a couple thousand people died.
          well, i did not say "9/11" is a joke (an old song you probably remember by n.w.a should come to mind). and the point that thousands of people died is exactly why this is so disturbing and deserving of our openness to new ideas and explanations.

          the issue you guys seem to be over-looking is that these theories have never been tested and are believed by many to be verifiable. there are also countless first-hand accounts of people who've been recorded saying they heard and saw what looked like explosives, many of whom are firemen and friends and family members of the victims. to say it couldn't have happened, in that the possibility is brushed away without any investigation (when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary), is a ridiculously irresponsible act of jumping to conclusions, and is something that would be simply unimaginable in any other context. with all the first-hand accounts, you guys are still saying it's implausible when no one has even conducted investigations into the possibility except for the "conspirators," who, of course, typically go unheard.

          So we stick to the established facts. Planes flew into buildings. Said buildings subsequently burned a while and then fell down. Common sense would suggest a causal relationship.
          i only wish i could be as easily swayed to believe something that defies any other reality and any other pretext that we know of. two 110 story buildings disintegrated into dust. i don't want to get into some of the specific details regarding this fact but it's unexplainable on any other terms. common sense would imply a correlation, yes, an association, but not a conclusion that is entirely unfounded.

          or perhaps these and other anecdotes should all just be blindly accepted from now on, because, you see, one of the high-jacker's passports was discovered in the aftermath! of course, that small, seemingly inconsequential book of paper was able to fly directly through the blazing heap of jet-fuel (which itself is at blame for "collapsing" two whole 110 story buildings), only later to be found unscathed laying on a sidewalk by some reliable FBI agent. lol... how remarkable!
          Last edited by onesp1ng; 07-08-2008, 08:21 AM.
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          • #50
            The sound of an explosion is caused by the pressure wave eminating from the source of the explosive (or, anything that causes a pressure wave...). Think of a car backfiring, a gunshot, or, drop a heavy book from a height so that it lands directly and flatly on its cover.

            Floors careening down upon each other, flattening the air below, will most definitely cause various pressure waves, and therefore, the sounds of "explosions".
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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            • #51
              Onesp1ng, apologies on missing the Public Enemy reference.

              Anyway, you're missing the point. The most evidence you have to offer is some buildings collapsing strangely (depending on who you ask) and anecdotes about people hearing or seeing what could conceivably be explosives. This evidence is enough to raise questions about what happened. But I'm sure you must realize, this evidence is not even close to enough to prove that the Bush Administration conspired to launch a massive attack on U.S. soil as a fabricated justification for the "war on terror".

              You say that's all the evidence we can get essentially because the conspiracy has been so effective as to prevent meaningful investigation. In other words, you've already come to the conclusion that there's a conspiracy and are then using that assumption to prove that there's a conspiracy. Does this remind you of anything?

              People don't need stories about the Illuminati as a reason to oppose reckless wars and domestic surveillance. Of course we should look into things like 9/11 further, but try to focus on the much more concrete and immediate threats, and don't make sweeping and unverifiable claims that will honestly just make you look crazy, and do more harm than good.

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              • #52
                In the end, i just hope the bigwigs know what they are doing, and i hope even more that our lives will be considered. thats all i ask.
                "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                • #53
                  Where are these theories of the US govt doing this, coming from? I haven't heard much about this before it was brought up here. And what are they saying exactly?
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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                  • #54
                    The most evidence you have to offer is some buildings collapsing strangely (depending on who you ask) and anecdotes about people hearing or seeing what could conceivably be explosives.
                    there is a lot more evidence than that, but we could also say the only evidence you're working with are two planes flying into two buildings and anecdotes about "collapse initiation."

                    zach, i understand my original statement may have come off a little strong and premature, and for that i apologize, but what's being referenced exactly when you say "concrete and immediate threats?" did that day not act as the impetus for a great deal of US based initiatives overseas? is this... like too politically incorrect or something? i know, i'm just asking too many questions again. (damn...)

                    actually, i'm surprised that, absent meastro, no one has even mentioned another area that concerns them still regarding 9/11. i'm not trying to "boil the pot," as it were, and it's not my intention to produce hatred toward america or anything ridiculous like that (i've lived on the other side of that coin and it's not a pretty thing). but most people who view this site, from my understanding, are american and so this is an important issue which warrants some discussion.

                    now, i know very well that this is out of my hands, and that, in a way, we're all "blind men touching an elephant." i've always held to the contention that you take care of the people around you. just, i don't really don't know what people need "as a reason to oppose reckless wars and domestic surveillance," either. maybe this is my way to find out (because, well, it appears there have been "reckless wars" for much of history...and the US is now at the forefront of many of them). so what is it, then, that people need?

                    you may feel i'm foolish and crazy sounding, and that's fine. i think it's valuable to look at both positions equally and honestly, especially when there's significant evidence that's gone undiscussed. you guys have all the answers: it was the "terrorists." but if you can't explain the inconsistencies, for instance, then why stick to the official account, and, at the same time, suggest people like me are being unreasonable?
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                    • #55
                      What would have happened if the US did not invade Afghanistan? Or, did not do anything after the terrorist act of 9/11. Think about that.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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                      • #56


                        unfortunately, however, the plan was already in affect before 9/11, which demonstrats intent. and there's motive, too. there may be a certain logic at play here, but it still feels a bit too disingenuous for me, and even more so with there never being an investigation into the possibility.
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                        • #57
                          From that msnbc link..
                          The administration most likely was able to respond so quickly to the attacks because it simply had to pull the plans “off the shelf,”
                          There are always plans available "on the shelf" for all imaginable scenarios.. thats what the military does and they'd be negligent if they didn't do so. Al Qaeda was already a known threat to US/western interests for some time.

                          The fact that bush agreed to any plan just before 9/11 is irrelevant.. if he hadn't then everyone would be saying he dropped a bollock by not having a plan ready.

                          In such large scale events there will always be some inconsistancies, things that are hard to explain (scientifically) and things that could have many causes and the "right one" depends on your view point but in my opinion what you see is what you get.. terrorists/planes/fire/collapse.. the end.

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                          • #58
                            there is a lot more evidence than that, but we could also say the only evidence you're working with are two planes flying into two buildings and anecdotes about "collapse initiation."
                            Exactly. Yet you're the one who's asserting a third, outside element, one for which there's no direct evidence whatsoever. Of course we don't have all the facts; but that doesn't make both "sides" equally valid. I don't know what to say if you really want to believe this.

                            How about this. I contend that everyone is wrong and aliens did it. Explain to me why I'm wrong.
                            Last edited by zachsan; 07-09-2008, 03:50 PM.

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                            • #59
                              My theory is a group of 9 powerful psychics did it... prove me wrong...
                              The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                              • #60
                                WKK got tired of moving clouds, and instead, moved airplanes?
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


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