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  • shaolin gongfu's relationship to buddhism

    over the past few months i've read some posts written by various "russboians" about a connection, said to be direct and inextricable, between the likes of shaolin gongfu and chan buddhism. the affiliaton between the two however, in my mind, is kind of like saying the art of dance is somehow rooted in hinduism or some other religion. personally i think it's another instance of where religion is given credit for something that has evolved naturally by itself over time, from age-old pujas, tribal dance, qigong, yoga, and so on...

    the first paragraph defining shaolin gongfu on wiki appears as follows:
    Shaolin Kung Fu refers to a collection of Chinese martial arts that claim affiliation with the Shaolin Monastery. Of the tens of thousands of kung fu wushu styles, several hundred do, in fact, have some relationship to Shaolin; however, aside from a few very well known systems, such as Shaolin Five Animal, the 108 Movements of the Wooden Man Hall, Enchanted Staff, White Eyebrow, etc., it would be almost impossible to establish a verifiable connection to the Temple for any one particular art.

    it would seem the association relating gong fu to the shaolin temple is verifiable for some forms, sets, and drills. but even if the martial arts practiced there were completely genuine in and of themselves, how are they, at the same time, linked to buddhism exactly?

    can someone explain how it's accurate to make the association between shaolin gongfu and buddhism? or rather, perhaps just clear up my misunderstanding?

    peace,
    one...
    ZhongwenMovies.com

  • #2
    Well i guess when u practice a shaolin form or have to face someone (i dont say fight because arahatship in buddhism literally means having no enemmy(, zen u should have an attitude that is relevant with buddhism, ie understanding the suffering of every living being and making an end of it.

    Yet i think i also have the same type of question as you. What makes the shaolin form buddhists? I studied Luohan quan with Shi Heng Jun but he never said anything buddhist about the forms, it was rather about hurting your partner (i also rather say partner than opponent( Though Luohan quan is supposed to be an arahat form, so higly buddhist...

    So if anyone has some light about what makes the forms buddhist i d also be grateful about the view.

    Om mani pedme hung

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    • #3
      It's been my understanding that they were practiced simultaneously. Since Chan (Zen) has for quite some time been taught with the emphasis that you should practice and experience it no matter what you do, it has been probably carried over into the wuseng monk's practice of martial arts.

      I don't think you have to be Buddhist to practice gongfu, particularly Shaolin. Just like you don't have to be Christian to enjoy the environs of European churches. Just keep in mind that they have been practiced side by side in not only Shaolin but other monasteries as well for hundreds of years. There is bound to be "cross-contamination" (for the lack of a better word) and that many terms will have a Buddhist influence within Shaolin gongfu.

      Plus, I for one do not necessarily consider Buddhist practice to be a religion. I have practice for over ten years now, and have met many Christians and Jews who have taken to Buddhist meditation, and practices in order for them to experience their own diety. It's all in how you look at it.
      "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

      "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

      "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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      • #4
        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
        Yet i think i also have the same type of question as you. What makes the shaolin form buddhists? I studied Luohan quan with Shi Heng Jun but he never said anything buddhist about the forms, it was rather about hurting your partner
        I find fighting to be a truly spiritual experiencing. You have to be yourself wholly, and completely because the moment you are can be the difference between winning or losing, and in some case life and death.
        "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

        "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

        "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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        • #5
          Since when did wikipedia become the all knowing resource?

          I've seen many instances where it's just comical; one example being the picture taken from wikipedia in the "muslim kung fu" thread.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            Shaolin Kung Fu refers to a collection of Chinese martial arts that claim affiliation with the Shaolin Monastery. Of the tens of thousands of kung fu wushu styles, several hundred do, in fact, have some relationship to Shaolin; however, aside from a few very well known systems, such as Shaolin Five Animal, the 108 Movements of the Wooden Man Hall, Enchanted Staff, White Eyebrow, etc., it would be almost impossible to establish a verifiable connection to the Temple for any one particular art.
            I think that is incorrect actually. From what I have read, those "styles" are not actually confirmed styles from Shaolin, with the exception being the five animals, as there is a form with that title.
            "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

            "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

            "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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            • #7
              buddhism and shaolin can be seperated but the state of mind needed for advanced and even entry level practice in shaolin gung fu cant be seperated, otherwise u shouldnt practice the art, for many reasons.

              also, shaolin gung fus primary focus is on developing the 5 essences, which is kind of funny because the wiki mentions the "5 animal system" lolo.

              i also feel that, even though buddhism can be seperated from shaolin gung fu individually i still feel that even though u may not claim buddhism as your own path, correct practice of the art demands practicing aspects of buddhist practice so whatever that means..i dont really know but its whatever

              im not a buddhist and i practice shaolin gung fu, but then again i never said shaolin and buddhism cant be seperated
              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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              • #8
                As I've discovered, practicing gong fu is practicing meditation.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #9
                  "As I've discovered, practicing gong fu is practicing meditation."

                  sometimes. lolo

                  depends on your skill level and intent imo. newbs practice meditation but they dont know they are they just following instruction.

                  standing post definately, forms and drills depends. skill building i feel more often then not meditation is involved but not always...

                  either way i agree just being a nuisance or however u spell that lolo
                  "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                  • #10
                    master deyang describes it beautifully and insightfully.

                    he likens it to the way vinegar is produced through the fermentation process of wine. kind of an elaborate simile. whereas wine represents chan, wushu is then the produced vinegar.

                    other times he says life is like a great tree of chan. there is no place where chan is not, and wushu is a single branch or leaf on that tree.

                    so basically, for a practicing buddhist in shaolin tradition, the practice of wushu is exactly chan buddhist practice- the manifestation of chan. it is more precisely termed "wushu chan", as there may be "walking chan", "eating chan", etc..

                    hope thats of benefit to your understanding of shaolin. i like it.

                    peace! _/\_

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                    • #11
                      liu sent me this in PM im gonna post it here and i will reply..i dunno why he sent it to me pm i dunno if hes in hell or something lolo b ut yeh.

                      QUOTE=liutangsanzang]Hi, in the thread about shaolin and buddhism u say u r not a buddhist.

                      I still dont understand what people say they are or not buddhist.

                      For me being buddhist does not depend on my individual choice but on the nature of reality. If buddhism is true then i m a buddhist, if it not true then i m not a buddhist. It depends on truth/reality not on me.

                      Being ignorant, i prefer to say i dont know if i am a buddhist.

                      Can u please explain to me what u mean by the sentence "i m not a buddhist"?


                      ok the reason i post this is cause it kinda mirrors lfjs philosophy..but not.

                      anyway i think if you call yourself something and u think in your mind your something then even though u might not be the best at that or hold up to all the principles or dogmas of whatever your still that.

                      for example..people say they are christian or muslim all the time. the other day i got into a crazy arguement with someone at subway which ended up actually getting crazy me and the crazy bitch i got into a fight with ended up going to the same place after leaving the subway... where she proceeded to try and hit me and gouge my eyes out and she eventually took off her belt and tried to hit me and all kinds of crazy shit..

                      but anyway, yeh that lady said she was a christian in subway, which is my point. now, the way she acted that day wasnt very christian like lolo but imho shes still a christian. because she probably goes to a christian church, probably reads a christian bible once and awhile. thinks shes a christian and says shes a christian. apparently anyway i dunno this person but im guessing thats what she does

                      now, people can argue u know differences and similarities in religion all day long but in the end the differences are to big to ignore for the most part and that will always be imo.

                      so when i say im not buddhist, even though i am practicing meditation while doing a form sometimes.. or walking or whatever im not a buddhist, or a hindu or whatever
                      "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                      • #12
                        He shouldn't be in HELL. I didn't put him there.
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #13
                          I think that the fact that these monks were living out in the middle of ass**** nowhere when this all started has a lot to do with how their physical practice linked with their spirituality and became the buddhist martial art we know of today.

                          More than likely, the mindset of those people is now long gone, but it can be rediscivered by following a certain kind of mindset that could predispose one to understand how it all unravelled.

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                          • #14
                            this may be going off topic, following the maestro/liutang discussion and adding my bit, but maybe i can draw some relation to buddhist/gongfu practice.

                            basically, in shaolin temple, there's nothing to help you distinguish the wuseng from the wenseng- and no need. they are all sengren.

                            anyhow,

                            the issue of identifying oneself with one religion or another should be, in my opinion, a personal one.

                            in the fellowship of other buddhists i may make my position known as one who likewise studies and practices the buddha's teachings. because we have common ground and an understanding on which we can build relationship and aid each others practice.

                            generally, though, i choose not to disclose such associations with acquaintances or people i know who are of different faith and would not feel open or comfortable with the difference. it can be quite sensitive sometimes and i dont want to alienate people or make them feel threatened or whatever else they may feel in response to differences like that.

                            however, the difference is only superficial. in reality there is no such difference, and so it is my view that identifying oneself by religious affiliation or whatnot is only creating false barriers between oneself and others-- barriers that will only cause trouble and that we will have to work twice as hard on to break down (in our own minds and in others).

                            so sometimes, its wise simply to not build them, or allow others to build them by disclosing your faith unnecessarily.

                            practice, to me, is personal and needs no external sign of affiliation.

                            if you honestly want to practice, just practice honestly.

                            through the course of life in general, when is it ever relevant to declare; "i am buddhist"?

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                            • #15
                              gong fu and buddhism

                              A Gong Fu student puts gong fu into every aspect of their lives. Gong Fu greatly helps one with their practice of buddhism by giving the student harmony and focus. Harmony with their body's and minds, and also with the world around them by regulating the flow of chi. The eight Gong Fu Wisdoms also come into play in buddhist practice, learning how to respect others etc.

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