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A look from the ground up? (Finding a school)

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  • A look from the ground up? (Finding a school)

    After a thorough (subject to interpretation) perusal of the site it's become more apparent to me that Shaolin (that is, the temple, the schools, the environ, etc) was and is not what I first believed it to be. And as insightful as your site is Doc, I can't help but feel overwhelmed by everything on here. Consequently, the revelation for me is to investigate the schools firsthand rather than taking the leap of faith by commiting to anything via a website or recommendation.
    My adventure to Shaolin is planned for early next year. Luckily, my situation affords me the opportunity to arrive in Dengfeng and spend some time finding a school that 'fits'. I noticed on your videos you moved quite freely throughout the schools to inspect the facilities, would you say most schools would allow you to do the same? or is it generally a buy before you try policy?
    Also, these schools are located in Dengfeng, or least on its outskirts by the looks of things; are there schools that operate further up in the mountains?
    When I arrive my plan of attack was to find a hotel, hire a taxi for a day or two, then approach a list of schools one by one. Can you offer any advice about pursuing training this way? or is my faith misplaced in a method that will only end in more confusion?
    Finally, the idea of enlisting in a school like Tagou is unappealing due the number of students and thus a lack of personal attention which seems implicit in its training (at least in my mind). I get the impression Shi De Yang is generally out of the country and that many of the masters do not teach regularly in their schools. Do many schools offer a more personalised approach? I don't necessarily mean one-on-one coaching but decent face-time with the masters.

    Many thanks

  • #2
    the revelation for me is to investigate the schools firsthand rather than taking the leap of faith by commiting to anything via a website or recommendation.
    wow, that's a first. good for you. you're doing it the smart way.

    and from my experience with chinese, you can always look before purchasing. also, don't forget to negotiate... as you see fit. it's common practice so don't be worried about imposing or anything.

    btw, welcome to the "club."
    ZhongwenMovies.com

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    • #3
      Good move. I'm overwhelmed when I get into this site, even I get lost and wonder what the **** I'm doing. And by all means, never, ever, take any website for what it says. Especially this one.

      But please don't be dismayed about this Shaolin stuff. Even though we tend to diss it here on the site, it is still a wonderful experience. It changed my life, for the most part for the better, and, a little, for the much worse. It is something that you really should experience if you so desire. But, you have to do it right.

      Going to Dengfeng to explore is a wise thing to do, but will probably be a frustrating experience. A story... Over a year ago, the Discovery Channel people wanted me to help them with a documentary for Fight Quest that they were filming on Shaolin. The production assistant, a cute little woman from New York, had a list of schools that she had found on the internet. She wanted to go from door to door, talk to people, and try to set up some sort of shooting arrangement.

      Talk about being lost. You might be able to do that in New York, but you won't get anywhere in China. First of all, the mainland Chinese will just tell you anything you want to hear, just to get your money. Second, there's the language barrier. Third, you really don't get anywhere in China unless you know people. Knowing people, "guanxi", or as we call it in Vegas, "juice" gets you everywhere.

      I knew people. So, the Discovery Channel ended up shooting with two of the greatest in Shaolin (Decheng and Deyang), and, also shooting at Da FA Wen Si, a very old and very beautiful temple location that was closed to the public. I put it all together at a price they could afford (basically, free, with donations). And it ended up being one of the better Fight Quests that Discovery had.

      The little NY woman with her internet list just wasn't going to be able to put it together like that.

      So, with that in mind, there are hundreds of locations to "research". And they change all the time. And some of them have websites which might be pretty, but really don't portray what's really going on there (Siping, in my opinoin, for example). You should go there, but go there with a plan.

      The other problem is, these good monks that have schools travel alot. So, you'll end up with their coaches, some of whom I know, and can recommend. Oh, and you get discounts if you have guanxi.

      So, here's a plan.
      Read the Shaolin FAQ and Suggested Readings in the main russbo site. Understand what you're getting into. There's lots of information here, buried here and there. The Shaoling Gong Fu Schools section here is pretty helpful too.

      Go to Dengfeng in March or later. Winter time is going to be wasteful time. Come to Thailand and enjoy the beaches, the food, the women and the Muay Thai instead.

      Check out Tagou, Decheng, Deyang, HengJun, and the wushu guan while you're there. I know all but Tagou, and can help you. The wushu guan might be more expensive than the rest, but they have indoor training and the hotel is not the rat infested shit hole that it was when I lived there.

      As for schools up in the mountains, generally not. I used to train up there with Decheng and others, as it was more private. Doesn't matter where the school is, just who you're training with.

      Some of the schools will want a try before you buy policy. they'll want a full year's fee. Avoid them at all costs. Pay month to month. Feel free to leave and start somewhere else.

      I always recommend Decheng's school, for a few reasons. I've known him now for thirteen years, and we're really close. I trust the guy. And he's a great teacher, with good coaches, who knows how to deal with foreigners. he won't screw you. Uncommon for most mainland Chinese, in my experience. I also like the wushu guan, but you'll spend more money there. Hengjun has a great location, and a great coach to learn from (a friend of mine from long time ago). You'll get a great exoerience up there.

      Most schools will not let you just walk around. They tend to be private types of places, with guards outside. DeQian's school was run as a military academy, with similar security. Don't expect to just show up and walk around all of these places. Some are ok, some are not. Again, guanxi is key. If you don't have it, you don't get everywhere.

      Feel free to post any other specific auesiongs. I think I answered everything. I'm available to help you with this journey. It will be a good and worthwhile one.
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

      (more comments in my User Profile)
      russbo.com


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      • #4
        I can't tell you both enough how much I appreciate the advice; sincerely thankyou. It's hard enough planning a trip to a country I've never travelled in before, furthermore taking into consideration finding training as well, so your suggestions are certainly welcomed.

        That said, I do have a couple more questions if you'd be kind enough to answer them. (I also read the Shaolin FAQ and most of the posts in the Shaolin Gong Fu Schools Section which were enlightening to say the least)

        Despite which school I find myself in, will it be necessary for me to need the services of a translator? I can see that pointing and positioning may not be enough to convey the intricate details of how and why something is done.
        I noticed in your journal a translator was present at some of your training sessions, were they included in your fees or paid for individually?

        Doc, you also mention the benefit 'guanxi' or more recognisably 'juice', that opens doors to introductions of notable figures and access passes around the schools. Did you find this process of establishing yourself within the Shaolin community difficult? From your first trip to Shaolin did your teachers assimilate you into their 'circle' so to speak, or was it more of a cumulative process of years which demonstrated your tenacity to stick around which earned you this position?

        Taking into account your response Doc, it seems like the best bet is to commit short-term to one of the schools you mentioned and see if it offers the training I'm after. Decheng was my first preference and obviously you regard him very highly, so I have a couple of specific inquiries about his wushu guan (His website is very limited, mainly pictures).

        From what I gather, the time at his school you spent in a hotel, is there the option to live on-site or only for domestic students? and if so, does that limit your ability to move around town after hours?

        If I was to arrive at the school without prior booking could I just enrol at the door or does a date need to be set?

        Last question and thankyou for bearing with me, do I stand a better chance nogotiating a price at the door or over the net? (I do not have any set plans as to the duration of my stay, ultimately I will be in China until my funds run out so if I'm at a school potentially a year. Though I will play this by ear when I get there.)

        Once again thankyou for your responses, they are very much appreciated.

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        • #5
          I spent quite a lot of time in Shaolin without a translator. It was interesting, to say the least. Later on, I had a good friend (Chinese) who spoke English fluently, and we trained together. It made it easier to get the information that is on this site. You don't need a translator, and most of the "translators" that you'll find at these schools are not necessarily the best. You will probably have to pay for them, even though the school provides them, if you want them with you. For basic school services, a translator at the school should not cost you anything.

          I did not find it difficult to "integrate" into the Shaolin community. Hey, I'm a lovable guy! Decheng and I hit it off the first year I was there, and over the following years, I met more and more people. Some took time to trust me, others latched on relatively early on in our relationship. It helps if you get close to one of them, because that opens the doors to the others. But remember, I spent a lot of time there, and I did a lot of things for these guys over the years. Then again, they did a lot for me.

          At Decheng's school, you can live at the school. The new building is much nicer than the old one, and you can train indoors, which helps when its cold or rainy. You're not limited with respect to moving around town after hours, though, there's not much to do at night. Bring a laptop and some games, unless you have a website that you're writing....

          You could enroll at the door, though it would be better, and more price favorable, if I set it up for you. You have a better chance of negotiating through me.

          Anything I can do to help, regardless of where you ultimately go, I will.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            wow,doc did a really good job in shaolin,admire you

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