Shaolin systems

[Maestro]

its funny coming here all these years and what do i really know about the temple..lolo, i know enough of the bad stuff i suppose.

what im interested in is the systems shaolin teaches. modern day shaolin is whatever it is..complicated to me atleast. because seemingly shaolin teaches several styles that can be found outside the temple and other styles that originated outside the temple.

im not trying to argue anything really im interested in what exactly these monks know.

for instance, in the past we all know that masters would pass down there systems to their disciples, sometimes the whole system only to a few disciples

so what exactly is being passed down by these monks? it seems like they all pass down the same system, we talked about the courtyards but not really that much i still dont really know as much as id like

anyway, again what system do they pass down or claim to pass down? there are alot of styles being taught in shaolin which is obvious, but systems are a staple of chinese gung fu

for instance for anyone who doesnt know..a style is a way of fighting, pretty much like muy thai, of boxing, they are a method of fighting moreso then a system, the difference is a system teaches the practitioner how to develope specific skills, specific styles, specific conditioning methods etc and is much more broad and more depth ingeneral

not taking away from the arts i mentioned but just saying a style is just simply like saying "praying mantis style" rather then seven star praying mantis

or hung gar kuen rather then mistakingly saying tiger/crane style lolo.

so whats the deal with shaolin systems, and why do the monks teach basically the same forms, with the same names etc

variations dont count, same forms same names/lyrics etc with different variations dont mean diff styles/systems

[LFJ]

all of the subsystems in shaolin are related and appear to be one distinct "songshan" shaolin style. they all share the same group of basics which are found in every set. the subsystems are just branches of the larger songshan system. not separate.

they can be traced back to origins, such as shaolin "soft boxing" (chin.: róuquán 柔拳), and to emperor zhao kuangyin's "flood boxing" (chin.: hóngquán 洪拳), sometimes called "old flood boxing" (chin.: lǎohóngquán 老洪拳), (which is something different than the later xiao/dahongquan sets created by li sou).

pretty much everything is related to these, some more distantly than others. subsystems branch out, but they are the same larger songshan system.

thats why most times people learn the main set or two from each subsystem within songshan shaolin. so everyone knows roughly the same sets. there are the "10 famous songshan shaolin sets". several are from the same subsystems, some are pairs, but they are all considered part of the greater songshan system which we all learn.

often times you may learn sets that are within the same subsystem, and you wouldnt know it unless they told you. such as yinshougun being a mizongquan weapon routine.

i'm sure there are still some who specialize in certain subsystems and learn more of the sets within them, but nowadays everyone learns at least the main set from each subsystem that makes up the larger songshan system.

its not difficult to become a great martial artist by learning the main sets of several subsystems. its not like learning another style after all. its all one. you just learn the main principles of each. each set teaches you something different, but its all part of one style.

the late venerable shi suyun was known to have focused only on xiaohongquan and tongzigong. yet when 16 or so japanese fighters came to shaolin to challenge them. he single-handedly mopped the floor with them and sent them home, protecting shaolin's reputation with xiaohongquan. so even one set can take you a long way.

one reason subsystems arent taught exclusively nowadays is that shaolin are not fighters. the days of "protecting the family and guarding the home" are gone. they dont need to develop like that. they practice in order to strengthen their bodies and stay healthy, as well as to practice chan and carry on the martial art tradition of shaolin. so, i wouldnt doubt it if many of them dont know even one subsystem fully. but thats not important.

[Maestro]

ok, that i can understand but still, in the past i wonder how were the "subsystems" passed down? for instance you talk about how the combat aspect of shaolin is neglected, and thats whatever but in the past it must have been different considering the time that has to be spent developing the skills neccesary for applying specific styles in combat.

obviously you dont have to be a genius to apply martial arts, thats not what im saying, but take tai chi for example, so the shaolin practice tai chi but we know that this style is often disregarded in combat scenarios but really i would never want to mess with some of the more powerful tai chi guys lolo. but it takes alot of work to develope TAI CHI fighting skills, anyone can develope a strong punch and hard kicks etc but applying tai chi, praying mantis, tiger, mizong whatever is different then just punch kick etc

and in the end these styles are different on that level. they are similar yeh we can talk about similarities all day, whenever i cross hands with other martial artists even from different cultures philipino, japanese etc im surprised by similarities but thats the human body

so its obvious what im getting at hopefully, im typing this fast cause i gotta work soon and i wanna eat and take a shower etc so how were such things passed down with so many styles or subsystems coming from the temple.

[LFJ]

the similarity i was describing was more direct, though. all the subsystems of songshan shaolin share the same set of basics. they are basically the same style, just with a series of sets that highlight a certain principle, but the same principle can be found in the other subsystems too, only overshadowed by another more emphasized principle. they are all very clearly songshan shaolin though. not like taijiquan and praying mantis or tiger, which use very different basics and body-mechanics.

as for how they were passed down, if you're talking about specifics on instruction and training, i cant be certain. i didnt live during that time. however, i'm aware of several different masters focusing on different subsystems which they would pass down in their family of disciples within the temple- and of course overlapping lineage with laymen masters. so, there were divisions.

[liutangsanzang]

veri in5eres5ing bu5 i don5 unders5and a shi5

u guis r in5ellec5uals

lfj wh6 5hese shaoling guis don5 ge5 5, in english awakening 5o buddha na5ure?

[Maestro]

what exactly do you mean by a subsystem? shaolin mizong? is that like what u mean? if so then what is shaolin taiji considered if it isnt part of "songshan shaolin style" or praying mantis, if that isnt shaolin what is it?

[LFJ]

what i mean is, for example the 10 famous songshan shaolin sets are all part of the songshan shaolin system, but among the ten you have for example "small arhat boxing" (chin.: xiǎoluóhànquán 小罗汉拳) which is one set from a subsystem of arhat boxing, which includes more empty hand sets, weapon sets, and two-person sets.

this is one subsystem within the larger songshan shaolin system. lost-track boxing is another such subsystem. what ties them all together into the larger songshan shaolin system is that while they emphasize different principles they are still distinctly songshan shaolin, sharing the same set of basics. each share the same principles, only place emphasis on different ones. so even visibly they are songshan shaolin.

nowadays (most commonly) only the main sets from each subsystem are studied as they contain the core principles of those subsystems emphasized. however, this is not like learning several different "styles" (muay thai, taekwondo, etc..) and only scratching the surface, because all songshan subsystems share the same foundation. they are part of the same system.

however, it is my understanding that in the past, masters would specialize in certain subsystems, learning all the sets contained within them and passing that on to their disciples. with the passing and changing of times, i think the necessity for that has dwindled. nowadays i wouldnt be surprised if some people only know (maybe not even all) 10 famous songshan shaolin sets, and then make up the rest of their lot with modern wushu sets.

other chinese styles that have origins in shaolin are not "songshan shaolin", but at the same time we cannot say they are not shaolin. various styles spread around the country and become adapted by the local masters in those areas according to their needs, environment, or even local styles already existing in those areas. it can change so much that it is not even visibly related to shaolin anymore, but if it came from shaolin, we cannot say it is not shaolin. it is just not what is learned or taught currently in shaolin temple, or perhaps was ever.

one example of this is "northern shaolin" (chin.: běishàolín 北少林) which is not and was never taught or practiced on shaolin temple grounds, though it is related to the yuan dynasty shaolin "vajra" (chin.: jīngāng 金刚) subsystem. because of the relation though, it can be called shaolin.

all the family styles of taijiquan are also related to shaolin... sal canzonieri made a very interesting observation of how the earliest shaolin sets of "gentle boxing" (chin.: róuquán 柔拳), yuan dynasty "small flood boxing" (chin. xiǎohóngquán 小洪拳), the late yuan/early song dynasty set compiled by emperor zhao kuangyin's generals- "taizu long boxing" (chin.: tàizǔ chángquán 太祖长拳), and the sets of chen style taijiquan (chin.: chén shì tàijíquán 陈式太极拳) all share the exact same opening sequence of movements.

this is where we get the saying; "all gongfu under the heavens come from shaolin. shaolin gongfu spreads all over the earth." (chin.: tiānxià gōngfu chū shàolín, shàolín gōngfu biàn tiānxià. 天下功夫出少林，少林功夫遍天下。)

[Maestro]

been trying to get to this for awhile, russbo has been hard to get on lately.

so i have some more questions lolo.

i understand what you mean by subsystem but how many subsystems are there? i assume 10+ because of what you said about the 10 famous shaolin hand sets

and where do the animal styles come into play, what are they considered to be if not a subsystem?

and besides qi gong what other systems are taught in the temple like tai chi etc or are there to many to go into?

and when it comes to "songshan shaolin style" what are the basics and principles of songshan shaolin?

and how are is the qi gong from shaolin related to the songshan shaolin style. i only really know of various forms of iron body coming out of shaolin temple and i know the monks practice the 8 section brocade, and obviously the yi jin jing and whatnot but i dont see how that could correlate with what you say songshan shaolin style is considering 1 predated another..or maybe im wrong maybe the flood boxing and rou kuen was changed?

[doc]

The site has been overwhelmed for some reason lately. Far too many visitors for the servers to handle. They've been shutting down with the loads.

I'm working on fixing it.

[LFJ]

how many subsystems are there? i assume 10+ because of what you said about the 10 famous shaolin hand sets

a few of the 10 famous sets are pairs and from the same subsystem. so they dont represent different subsystems. there are nearly 10 i can come off the top of my head with.

and where do the animal styles come into play, what are they considered to be if not a subsystem?

i would probably classify the imitative styles as a group. apart from the five animals, you also have eagle, monkey, dog, etc..

and besides qi gong what other systems are taught in the temple like tai chi etc or are there to many to go into?

qigong can be an umbrella term for a lot of things, but not really a fighting art. as for taijiquan, nowadays they mostly practice chen style taijiquan since they are so close in henan.

but as for "soft" styles, there is the shaolin rouquan. also one called shaolin "cotton boxing" (chin.: shàolín miánquán 少林棉拳), which is similar to chen style, but more closely resembles some of the taizu changquan and earlier shaolin, to which chen style is also related.

and when it comes to "songshan shaolin style" what are the basics and principles of songshan shaolin?

numerous. there are several line drills of basic postures and techniques found in almost every set in the songshan shaolin system, which are learned before sets. and of course the famous sayings:

"straight but not straight, bent but not bent" (chin.: zhí ér bù zhí, qū ér bù qū. 直而不直，曲而不曲), "rolling out, rolling in" (chin.: gǔnchū gǔnrù 滚出滚入), "be graceful like the cat, fight like the tiger, act like the dragon, move like the wind, sound like the thunder" (chin.: xiù rú māo, dòu rú hǔ, xíng rú lóng, dòng rú fēng, shēng rú léi. 秀如猫，斗如虎，行如龙，动如风，声如雷), etc..

and how is the qi gong from shaolin related to the songshan shaolin style.

quite directly. starting from the beginning, you have seated meditation, then stationary qigong (such as baduanjin), then full moving sets.

one qigong set called "arhat 13 forms" (chin.: luóhàn shísān shì 罗汉十三式) is a set of 13 postures/techniques. those were then expanded to create the full moving set of shaolin rouquan, which is the foundation for much of the later development of songshan shaolin gongfu. (attributed to second chan patriarch huike)

[Maestro]

ok, i did some searching on the site and im not coming up with much thats why im asking these questions, this thread will probably just get cluttered together with all the others but i want to have the knowledge for myself, but i cant just up and leave for shaolin temple in the middle of a recession.

of the subsystems, what are the names? mi zong, is tong bi one? what about the big red fist boxing whats that? or is it little red fist? and flood boxing is a subsystem, and soft boxing so thats 3 youve mentioned that i know of atm

i know there are alot of animals or imitative styles in shaolin, when you say youd classify them as a group you mean there really isnt much of them being taught? in comparison to real animal styles taught outside the temple or from southern shaolin

as for what you said about line drills and basics, thats all well and good, ive learned some of those from what my first teacher was taught by de cheng lolo and of course every style has little sayings like in hung gar thousand pounds sitting(sink the energy down) hard as steel soft as cotton, bla bla. what i was interested in were some of the methods or principles kinda like what u metioned

like this;[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c&feature=related"]YouTube - Shi De Jian 师 釋德建 Shaolin Application Xiao Hong Quan Xin Yi Ba[/ame]

[LFJ]

first, there is no "red fist", big or small. its a mistranslation of "hong", on account of using the wrong character. the character is 洪 and means flood, or flowing. not 红, which means red. though they are both pronounced exactly the same.

flood boxing (chin.: hóngquán 洪拳) was created by emperor zhao kuangyin (chin.: zhào kuāngyìn 赵匡胤) and taught to the monks in exchange for knowledge of soft boxing (chin.: róuquán 柔拳) before becoming emperor of song dynasty.

his flood boxing system differs from the commonly known small and large flood boxing sets (chin.: xiǎohóngquán & dàhóngquán 小洪拳 & 大洪拳) from yuan dynasty, which were two matching sets created by li sou (chin.: lǐ sǒu 李叟), who came to the temple with monk jueyuan (chin.: juéyuǎn héshang 觉远和尚) and five-animal boxing (chin.: wǔxíngquán 五形拳) master bai yufeng (chin.: bái yùfēng 白玉峰).

then the more common large flood boxing set (chin.: dàhóngquán 大洪拳) from qing dynasty is unrelated to li sou's style. it was compiled by shaolin monks based on the diary given to the temple by zhao kuangyin, and named dahongquan- large flood boxing- in honor of zhao kuangyin's flood boxing.

full-arm boxing (chin.: tōngbìquán 通臂拳) was created based on yuan dynasty xiaohongquan, qing dynasty dahongquan, and houquan- monkey boxing. but they are all considered types of long boxing (chin.: chángquán 长拳).

though they are related, they break down and expand into their own subsystems with several sets, such as the soft boxing (chin.: róuquán 柔拳). flood boxing (chin.: hóngquán 洪拳) is one. lost-track boxing (chin.: mízōngquán 迷踪拳) is another. full-arm boxing (chin.: tōngbìquán 通臂拳), six-harmony boxing (chin.: liúhéquán 六合拳), arhat boxing (chin.: luóhànquán 罗汉拳), seven-star boxing (chin.: qīxīngquán 七星拳), plum-blossom boxing (chin.: méihuāquán 梅花拳), cannon boxing (chin.: pàoquán 炮拳), five-animal boxing (chin.: wǔxíngquán 五形拳), pictographic boxing (chin.: xiàngxíngquán 象形拳), etc..

i know there are alot of animals or imitative styles in shaolin, when you say youd classify them as a group you mean there really isnt much of them being taught? in comparison to real animal styles taught outside the temple or from southern shaolin

i meant as "pictographic boxing" (chin.: xiàngxíngquán 象形拳), which is imitative. drunken boxing (chin.: zuìquán 醉拳) is also one of these, but nowadays all drunken boxing is modern creation, made up by the performer. the original shaolin drunken boxing is called "drunken arhat" (chin.: zuì luóhàn 醉罗汉), part of arhat boxing, which we only know about through written records. no one knows it anymore. however, remnants of it can be found throughout the arhat boxing sets. such as in "small arhat boxing" (chin.: xiǎoluóhànquán 小罗汉拳) which has "three drunken steps" (chin.: sān zuì bù 三醉步), as well as "crazy devil stick" (chin.: fēngmógùn 疯魔棍) which also has some drunken arhat stepping called "blind man searches path" (chin.: xiāzi zhǎolù 瞎子找路).

as for what you said about line drills and basics, thats all well and good, ive learned some of those from what my first teacher was taught by de cheng lolo and of course every style has little sayings like in hung gar thousand pounds sitting(sink the energy down) hard as steel soft as cotton, bla bla. what i was interested in were some of the methods or principles kinda like what u metioned

if understood more deeply, those sayings help to point out methods or principles. the basic line drills help you develop the mechanics used throughout the songshan shaolin system. master dejian explains and demonstrates several in the applications of xiaohongquan. if you'll notice he doesnt show one clear cut application for each move. he explains and demonstrates principles, understood and developed through basic training. its difficult to see, and much more difficult to discuss. its developed and understood through training with the master. thats why there are sayings to help point the way. because it isnt always clear cut. fighting, after all, is unpredictable and dirty. you feel it when you learn it.

[doc]

According to Su Yuan and DeCheng, "Hong" character as written and passed down, might also be considered to be a family name from ancient times, thought to be approximately a thousand years ago.

[LFJ]

right, it is a common chinese family name. such as in the southern style hungkyun, in cantonese, hongquan in mandarin. it uses the same character 洪, which i believe is for the family name, as opposed to zhao kuangyin's style using the character for the meaning "flood" or "flowing".

the qing dynasty dahongquan compiled according to zhao kuangyin's diary donated to shaolin uses the character to match his flood boxing style.

the xiaohongquan and matching dahongquan set created by li sou in the yuan dynasty use the same character as well, but his family name is "li", like jet li. so, it would not make sense as a family name. it was likely named to match the flood boxing style of zhao kuangyin, which formed most of the shaolin material.

li sou as the creator of those matching sets in the yuan dynasty is the history as written in shaolin records, it is also on the shaolin temple's website in the chinese version.

of course though, there are many legends. zhao kuangyin is said to have created the taizu changquan set and to have taught it personally to the shaolin monks. which is the story version. master deyang tells this one too.

the historical records state that it was several of his generals who put together their best stuff that worked in battle and created the set, then taught it to shaolin as a testing set to weed out any fakes claiming to be from shaolin. since each person added something, the set has a very strange rhythm. zhao kuangyin was busy being emperor and only went to shaolin for two short periods before becoming emperor. those short periods were when he learned rouquan and taught his hongquan. taizu changquan wasnt created until after he became emperor, and included some of the rouquan elements he learned before.

so then there is also the legendary story told by ven. shi suyun of the father and son refugees surnamed "hong", who taught the sets to shaolin in gratitude of their hospitality. the father's set was "dahongquan" (large hong) and the son's was "xiaohongquan" (small hong).

but based on the historical records, li sou created them and named them "xiao & dahongquan"- flood boxing, for the flowing characteristic of the style.

[liutangsanzang]

is this hong carachter the same as the name of li hong, the reincarnation of laozi the lingdao daoist school waits?

i realized last week that mi name in vietnamese is Ri Hong with a i greek but it is in vietnamese which is a lot of martial art problems

bi the wai hong in vietnamese is a negation, it means no. daoism and chinese buddhism have fascinating ideas about nothingness and negation, for instance the meditation on no I