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  • Origins of Sanda / Sanshou

    Have you studied other martial arts besides Shaolin? I think you studied Thai Boxing, right? What is your honest opinion about the effectiveness of traditional Shaolin? I go to China mostly to see the temple and out of genuine appreciation for the birthplace of most martial arts but in my mind I don't expect to become a much better fighter. As I come from Jeet Kune Do background I don't really see much use in terms of real fighting to learning forms or punching from a horse stance. I have done this staff when I learned Kung Fu in the UK in the past. But JKD is much more agile and fluid and all the punches and kicks are done how they would be done in a real fight. I would like to believe though that a good master such as the ones from the 'De' generation know how to 'kick ass'. What's your inside from these guys? In a real fight would they use Kung Fu or just Sanda? Sanda is not really Chinese, the punches mostly come from Western Boxing and the kicks are not exactly traditional either. I've never seen any of these guys doing anything but practising forms. I recently ordered a dvd of Shi De Yang showing the applications of Da Hong Chuan. I haven't received it yet but I have seen clips of it on youtube. I can't say i was very impressed by what I have seen so far.
    I have studied other arts.

    Judo when I was a kid. Which was a very ****ing long time ago
    Kenpo for many years. Stopped a long time ago.
    Seidokan, also for a few years. Stopped.
    Wing Chun, for a few hours. (Couldn’t stand it)
    Shaolin for a long time. Used to teach it. Now, rarely practice it.
    American boxing, for a few years. Don’t deal with it anymore
    Muay Thai, in Thailand, for many years (teach it also). Still do this. Going to pick it back up next month when I return to Asia.

    Shaolin is great stuff, I really enjoyed it. There are a lot of combat applications even in the simple stuff, but you need the right teacher to expose you to it. Which is why I tried to get you with Decheng. The younger guys don’t deal with it; they’re too interested in competition. Competition brings awards, awards brings future jobs. But, then again, I was never interested in the fighting aspect of martial arts; I always enjoyed the health aspects, and learning the tradition associated with it. Ironically, I ended up learning oodles of fighting applications, but, again, the whole fighting (and current MMA shit) just doesn’t appeal to me.

    Sanda has its roots in Shaolin forms. It seems to be a less pure form of traditional fighting, more like Muay Thai. The applications in Shaolin have a certain style, finesse, and art to them. Sanda is fun, but don’t bother with it now. Learn the traditional shaolin stuff, and you’ll find all sorts of jewels in it. I don’t believe that Sanda comes from western boxing; I think it all comes from the Greeks when Alexander the Great conquered that way (look up Pankration, I think I have it on the site). You’ll see lots of similarities between some Shaolin stuff, sanda, and Pankration. I don’t think we influenced the Chinese all that much when it ocmes to fighting styles.

    Da Hong is not one of my favorites. Don’t bother with it. Shao Hong is much better, along with the other ones I mentioned. There are two versions of it; the three stage long version is very boring and repetitive, and the newly created version is just a reiteration of Shao Hong Chuan.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  • #2
    Hello Doc! Thanks for the info about your martial arts background. I am both interested in the fighting aspect of martial arts and the philosophy behind it and the beauty of the forms. I have been studying Taoism and Buddhism since I was 18. I am particularly attracted to Taoisn and Chan Buddhsim, which are quite similar and related to each other. Are you really a doctor bytheway? I am actually a lawyer and part time JKD instructor.

    I am not interested in Sanda as I have a good idea what it is, kickboxing essentially plus a few takedowns and maybe some knees and elbows. I do disagree with you however about Sanda not taking moves from Western boxing. I have researched the history of Sanda and although the official claim is that the techniques derive from various kung fu styles, the truth is and many officials involved in the creation of Sanda have admitted this, most punches come from Western boxing. Sanda was only created a few decades ago. As you know, traditional punches are different to Sanda punches. There is an uppercut, hook etc in traditional kung fu but they are very different that Western boxing punches. In Kung Fu punches there is less use of the waist, the feet don't turn on the toes as the punches are executed from more stable stances with feet on the ground and the uppercut and hook are much more telegraphic most of the time than the Western boxing punches. Sanda jab, cross, hook etc are identical to Western boxing punches. Sanda takedowns were taken from Shuai Chiao which is Chinese and the kicks can be found in traditional Kung Fu but they are modified and closer to Karate kicks. I do know about Pangration as I am actually Greek! It's true that it might have been the source of Kung Fu although Kung Fu took a very different rout, forms, animal imitations etc But Sanda is another story.
    I think that once you get to China, you might want to inquire as to what they feel their history of sanda / sanshou is all about. It will be enlightening, to say the least…. And if you train in the advanced techniques of Muay Thai, you’ll also see a lot of similarities. Also, remember, mankind has been fighting with itself ever since they could walk. I would hesitate to attribute any fighting style to any country born only two hundred years ago. It’s been done before….

    Once you’re there, look around the temples and such at the statues. As you’re familiar with pankration, I think you’ll see some things depicted there that may surprise you.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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    • #3
      Hi Doc!

      About Sanda we will agree to disagree. Lol. I still think that Sanda has several Western boxing elements and that is generally accepted. Sanda was only created in the 1960s when Western boxing was very popular. And it is a well known fact that Thai boxing as well has borrowed techniques from Western boxing. Thai boxing as practised today is quite different to the traditional martial art. In Jeet kune Do as well we have all the Western Boxing punches as Bruce Lee knew they can be very effective and many other famous oriental martial artists have adopted Western boxing punches. Borrowing of techniques in martial arts is not restricted to new martial arts borrowing from old. Old and traditional doesn't always mean better and more effective.
      I’m going to have to disagree with you yet again! Imagine that. I guess I’m just a very disagreeable person. Forgive me, I’m from New York…

      Sanda: Look into what was going on in China during the late sixties, early seventies. Here’s a hint: http://www.russbo.com/Foundations/cu...evolution.html

      The last thing these people were thinking about in the 1960’s was boxing, and interaction with the west. I have some friends who have lived through these days…. Sanda, or sanshou (empty hands) is basically fighting without weapons. Which people have been doing since, well, since they first learned how to walk. But as an accepted or acknowledged system, it goes back to the early twentieth century, when the Kuomintang army trained and exhibited it. It has more than the typical western boxing, as western boxing does not have the chin na, wrestling, or kicking components.

      Thai boxing: I dare you to go to Thailand and tell some old Thai boxing teacher that it has borrowed techniques from western boxing, LOL. Having spent years there, well, let me know, I’d like to watch when you do it. I’ve trained in both modern MT and very little of the old classical stuff, which goes back centuries….. the older stuff is very similar to what the new stuff is, with the exception of some weapons that they used to use, hand wraps, and some of the more modern compilations of moves.
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

      (more comments in my User Profile)
      russbo.com


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      • #4
        I am not saying that Sanda is just Western Boxing. Like I said in one of my previous emails, what I understand from what I've read is that Sanda takedowns were taken from Shuai Chiao which is of course Chinese and the kicks were also largely taken from Chinese martial arts. But the punches have a definite Western Boxing influence. And I am not saying all the punches. For example I think Sanda uses a backfist, that is obviously a Chinese martial arts strike and not Western Boxing. But the jab, cross, hook and uppercut are performed in the same way as Western Boxing. This is what I noticed from several videos I have watched about Sanda but also reading about the history of Sanda confirmed my observation. Of course I would not say to the Chinese locals or the Thai locals that their arts are not entirely indigenous as I would probably have my ass kicked! The same way I wouldn't go to Japan and say to the Japanese that Karate's origins can be found in Kung Fu and Jujitsou's origins can be traced back to Chi Na. But this doesn't change the facts. The official version to make the local population proud is that Sanda techniques were taken from Chinese martial arts but if you research the history of Sanda, Western Boxing influenced a lot the development of Sanda and I've also read that even Thai boxing had a certain influence. I know that Sanda has been around since the beginning of the 20th century but that was quite a different Sanda to the Sanda created around the sixties. Sanda fights in the early 20th century often ended up in death as they were using real traditional Kung Fu techniques such as chops to the throat and kicks to the groin and not Western boxing punches.

        The Chinese government wanted a practical and functional martial art that could be used for self defence for the army but also to make proud the Chinese in tournaments. So they had to remove the classical stances and footwork and they needed a mobile stance, practical kicks and punches. Besides the more sport oriented Sanda there is also a more hardcore army version of Sanda using more lethal techniques.

        If Sanda punches come from traditional Kung Fu, which Kung Fu styles do they come from? I have practised several different styles of Kung Fu, read dozens of books on most well known Kung Fu styles and have watched dozens of instructional dvd's ranging from Long Fist kung Fu, Choy Lee Fut, Praying Mantis to Wing Chun and many many others. In no traditional Kung Fu style are there punches identical to the ones in Western Boxing. Choy Lee Fut is the Kung Fu style generally considered to have punches closer to Western boxing. Still though, there are major differences in a Choy Lee Fut hook punch and a Western Boxing hook. Robert Smith wrote a famous book called 'Chinese Boxing', this guy spent several years in Taiwan and Hong Kong studying Kung Fu in the early sixties when Kung Fu was more traditional. He had witnessed several tournaments and he said that many of the fights were ludicrous by Western boxing standards as boxers were using 'haymakers', meaning wild swings. This is the swing they also use in Choy Lee Fut and the same one I was taught when i was learning kung fu but I have also seen it in a video of 'Nan Chuan' form of the Shaolin Temple. Traditional kung fu doesn't have the tight, non telegraphic hook punch of Western boxing and even a couple of Kung Fu styles such as Long Fist who have a less telegraphic hook, they still do not use the waist and hip in the same way that Western Boxing does. But you have a look at Sanda and you see punching combinations such as jab, cross, hook etc done in an identical way to Western boxing. And even the stance of Sanda cannot be traced in any Kung Fu style. You don't see a cat stance or a horse stance in Sanda or any traditional footwork. Even the way the kicks are executed is different. The side kick for example is used with a sliding step similar to the one we use in Jeet Kune Do and not with the traditional crossing of the feet as in a DVD I've seen with Shi De Deci for example demonstrating basic skills of Shaolin. I have seen a dvd on Da Hong recently with Shi De Yang showing the martial art applications. Nowhere did I see any punches resembling the Sanda punches and even the kicks were quite different.

        I agree that Wushu is not as effective as traditional Kung Fu in real combat but the motivation in creating Wushu was not fight effectiveness but just the opposite. They wanted flowery moves and acrobatics that look impressive but have limited fighting applications as the communist government did not want to promote fighting arts. But if you look at other modern martial arts such as Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga they are very effective! And even Sanda is a modern martial art created to be practical and simple. I doubt that many of the Shaolin Monks would use traditional kung fu in a real fight. I think most of them would use Sanda! People such as Shi Yan Lee of the UK Shaolin Temple or Shi Yan Ming of the USA shaolin temple give a lot of emphasis on Sanda and don't seem to think too much of the effectiveness of traditional Shaolin.

        No doubt the Chinese were the most creative of all nations in developing hundreds of techniques ranging from kicks, punches, throws, joint locks, attacks to vital points and most martial arts can be traced back to China. But the Chinese were also concerned with the idea of beauty in forms and also they used to love tradition. The Kung Fu stances remained unchanged for centuries! Only in the 20th century the need for functionality led to the creation of Sanda, a more practical stance, mobile footwork etc. The same in Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee kept many traditional moves but modified them to make them better and created a new stance and footwork with the aim of practicality and effectiveness. Martial arts evolve as everything else in life does.
        "If Sanda punches come from traditional Kung Fu, which Kung Fu styles do they come from?"

        And

        "But you have a look at Sanda and you see punching combinations such as jab, cross, hook etc done in an identical way to Western boxing."

        Remember one thing. The human body is designed in such a way that its part only move in certain directions. There’s only so many ways a guy can punch. Whether it is in 1920. 2010. Or during the Roman empire.

        Let's see what the gang has to say about this. I'll move this conversation to the forum, with your approval (given).
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)
        russbo.com


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        • #5
          Sanda for sure has a lot of influence from the Chinese martial arts and western boxing. I’ve been training and fighting in sanda for almost a decade and my Shifu is from the Shaolin Temple. Sanda’s fundamental kicks are chuai tui (Sidekick), deng tui (front push kick) and bian tui (whip kick). Of course there are more advanced kicks used such as spinning kicks and sweep kicks, but my point is that the kicks in sanda have a huge influence from the Chinese martial arts. The sidekicks are used in shaolin all the time, and the sanda push kick utilizes the whole foot including the heel with differentiates it from the Muay Thai teep which uses the ball of the foot mainly. Also the whip kicks (roundhouse kicks) are used different then Thai boxing, in sanda we utilize the chamber so it’s faster and harder to catch. I can show many shaolin form examples where all these kicks were utilized. As far as the takedowns, that of course has the biggest influence from the Chinese martial arts. The sweeps, throws and takedowns all come from Traditional Chinese folk wrestling Known in the west as shuai jiao. Many takedowns techniques used In sanda also come from taiji and shaolin as well. Another component of SanDa that’s used in the Chinese military and police force is Qin Na joint locks. These are also in the sanda syllabus and have deep roots in arts like taiji Quan and shaolin Quan. Lastly, the hand strikes were influenced by western boxing (besides the spinning back fist of course), and that’s why it’s considered “modernized kung fu”. It’s simply boxing mixed with Chinese martial arts in a freeform. Since it’s not structured in forms that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have strong traditional roots. Many sanda fighters also know about the use of the Dantian when it comes to being able to push someone and send them flying Off the lei tai (traditional staged platform) using your body weight. This push with your body weight is used in many Internal arts, especially when doing push hands. I don’t train forms, but I devote myself to the truth of combat. I train sanda and compete and put myself in uncomfortable situations so I become comfortable In those uncomfortable situations. So what if if uses western boxing, every art needs to be updated, Muay Thai, Kyokushin, Okinawa karate and taekwondo fighters all use boxing now and don’t use the old traditional hand method in their forms. Boxing upgraded all traditional martial arts, but the kicks, footwork, takedowns, and clinch work all still come from traditional martial arts in modern mma too. If you guys want to hear from the first Chinese Sanda Coach who was at the conference with all the Chinese martial arts masters when they were developing sanda, hit the link to watch a full interview https://youtu.be/NDOkPNzKGBg

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