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  • Wong Kiew Kit

    Doc told me to start a new thread so i thought i might take him up on that. I'm writing this to debate the subject. I'd like to know what you guys think. Basically what i'm gonna say is quite controversial so i might get a lot of flack for this. I suspect Wong Kiew Kit of being a fraud and a cult leader. For evidence of such cults, look at falun gong. The idea hadn't entered my mind until i spoke to his students on his website.

    Now, it is very likely that this is a fantasy i've created from my over active imagination and warped view of reality. However, it isn't out of the question. Don't believe in cults? Two words, suicide bomber. If this is not mind control at its best i don't know what is.

    Ok, now i suppose for some evidence:

    1. Wong Kiew Kit claims he has almost magical powers that allows him to cure cancer (openly claiming this is my biggest problem with it).
    2. Wong Kiew Kit claims most other teachers are frauds or cannot teach qi gong as well as he can.
    3. Rules are laid down and enforce by his students as to how communication can and should be made between students and Wong Kiew Kit.
    4. The students seem overly critical to any questions into Wong Kiew Kits legitimacy.
    5. In fact they seem overly protective in any seemingly critical questions or comments.
    6. His students talk about him as if he is Jesus Christ or Sidhartha Buddha.

    Ok, few lines, i know i havn't quoted the evidence for these allegations. I will, if you want me to. Basically though, i think we're debating something. Now to my even more controversial thread.....
    help me, i'm confused

  • #2
    Hi Bungle,

    I was reading your posts at the Wahnam forum and of course all the answers you got from the members there. It was very entertaining to say the least.
    The communication rules that you have been taught there turned it all into comedy. It’s ok for me, if students are admiring their master for his abilities, skills or wisdom, but what I found there, were some misguided people worshipping a man, who doesn’t deserve that much attention in such a way. Because after all he’s just a man!!

    In the forum archive (old discussion forum) you can find a bunch of conversations between the members of russbo.com and Wong Kiew Kits students. What started as a thread for sharing knowledge and “wisdom”, just ended in a disaster of false accusations, and misunderstandings. The Wahnam people seemed not to be able to understand that not everyone is accepting Wong Kiew Kits so-called “wisdom”, without questioning the facts.

    There were a few things that I didn’t appreciate at their attitude.
    1. They never allowed anyone to have a different opinion about Wong Kiew Kit.
    2. I hated their manner of lifting Wong Kiew Kit on a pedestal to diminish the abilities, skills and knowledge of the monks.
    3. It disgusted me to see, that they were just using russbo.com as a free advertisement place for their institute. Please don’t get me wrong, it’s ok for me when people are advertising their schools here, but not in the way as the Wahnam people did.
    4. The arrogant and snotty way they used to talk to people here, simply pissed me off. This behaviour might be apposite for their forum, but it surely isn’t courteous.

    I don’t know if it’s mind control, but Wong Kiew Kit surely influenced the mind of his students in a scary way. None of them got a personal opinion, and if you asked them a question, you never got an answer immediately. It seemed to me as if they had to ask their master first what to answer, before they did so. Wong Kiew Kit has a surprising control over his students, and that’s frightening.

    Many questions have never been answered, and many claims stood unproven. The kings have left the building, and we all received our own impression about them.

    My impression about them was not the best one, and yes I would say it is similar to a cult.


    Cheye
    Don’t take life too serious, as you won’t get out of it alive anyway.

    Comment


    • #3
      I've read his books and he makes it sound so fantastic, its easy to see why people get sucked in. Even now i still want to learn from him, but i'd rather not risk becoming a zealot. I have this silly feeling that if i trained with him he would some how influence me to have a great experience practicing chi gong. After that he wouldn't find it too hard to convince me to come again to learn more etc.

      I could quite easily believe that someone could make you feel just about any sensation they wanted if they could make you do what they want (and they were trained in the relevant skill). This is exactly what chi gong allows him to do. If you don't do what he asks then you ain't gonna be practicing chi gong! He controls his students not only physically but mentally using visualization n wotnot. On the other hand maybe it's all on the level, in which case it all sounds so fantastic.

      Shame...
      help me, i'm confused

      Comment


      • #4
        Some methods of Qigong use visualisation, others dont. Theres the saying "yi leads qi" which means intention of the mind leads the energy.

        just find a good teacher and practise - you will get better

        dave
        simple and natural is my method,
        true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

        Comment


        • #5
          Rules are laid down and enforce by his students as to how communication can and should be made between students and Wong Kiew Kit.
          Wow, interesting. Do you have any further information on this? (The other stuff you mention is just typical "hero worship" that you find in martial arts schools).

          It disgusted me to see, that they were just using russbo.com as a free advertisement place for their institute. Please don’t get me wrong, it’s ok for me when people are advertising their schools here, but not in the way as the Wahnam people did.
          And I thought I was the only one who "saw" this... LOL

          The archive has some interesting material about our interactions with the Wahnamites. We were starting to get into some really good discussions, especially since I was having a "one on one" interaction with WKK himself, about one of his books. I approached the discussion about his one book which had a chapter on curing cancer with qi gong from a purely medical and scientific approach. In my opinion, when I was preparing to spring an educational discussion trap on him, concerning his commentary, they all left. OH well. It really could have been interesting. It's a shame that our little discussion didn't continue; I'm not a big fan of all that he opines, but, I did (and still do) have an open mind about the whole qi gong thing.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            Yeah, try saying something slightly out of line about Wong Kiew Kit on their message board and bang.
            They make ya read this

            They corrected me too much n wotnot....
            It's all very sutble. I dunno why i started this discussion now anyway. I think i'm done ranting....

            But i think i have a problem with authority anyway
            help me, i'm confused

            Comment


            • #7
              don't tell me...

              ...you sat with your groin exposed to him?

              It's obvious to me which way the wind blew with that whole WKK thing. And I did say WKK, a big NO-NO. Now these clouds will never disperse. I guess his books are good- and the good they have done you can't deny it or try and take that away from him. I am sure WKK has changed lives for the better. Some poeple might say that about L.Ron Hubbard though.

              For me, what really hit home, was the hypocrisy the question and answers revealed. It shone a big bright spotlight on some of the ridiculous positions some of his students had taken over the course of their engagement with this forum. How he had no problem charging shitloads of cash for his skills, but would not test in a double blind study to determine their legitimacy, while offering just such a motive to justify his involvement in a totally unscientific newspaper "report" (which they offered as scientific "proof" of ability) his self proclaimed grandmaster status, how he wouldn't cure AIDS patients, how his students spoke about him and constantly assumed his info was the end all end all...how Anthony threatened me with his "thousand kicks" for not speaking well of WKK, how everything he claimed was also the provenance of all too well known hacks and con artists, their knockdown of our interpretation of the Yi Jin Jing (and by the way they went out of their way to dispell the idea that there is an actual book- something we never claimed- yet Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is highly revered by them, and he does claim the Yi Jin Jing to be a book- so why the duplicitous denouncement of something we never claimed)- and to me, the biggest thing was he had no idea about the convergence of Buddhist/Confucist principles in one of the important transmission Shaolin ceremonies. For a third or fourth generation successor of a monk I found that too hard to accept. He plainly stated he had no idea.

              None of it added up, except the denaro.
              "Arhat, I am your father..."
              -the Dark Lord Cod

              Comment


              • #8
                Selections quoted from the Wahnam website:

                SHOWING RESPECT TO THE MASTER
                creating the right mental frame for the best learning

                Addressing the Master Correctly

                It is worthwhile to remember that your master is not your peer or equal. Your master is at least one, but usually many levels above you, otherwise he cannot and should not be your master. The proper way to address your chi kung or kungfu master is "Sifu", which is the Cantonese dialect of the Chinese language for "Master". The Mandrin pronunciation is "Shifu".

                Actually if a great master answers you when you call him "Sifu", you are, not he is, honoured; it shows he accepts you as a student.

                Showing Propriety

                Besides showing propriety in your address, you should also show propriety in your behaviour. Do not, for example, put your hand around him, pat him on his shoulder, or hug him -- leave that to his wife, which following eastern social etiquette is also only done in private.

                When you stand or sit in front of or near him, hold yourself upright. You need not stand at attention like a private in front of his sergeant major, but you should not stand sloppily, with arms akimbo or hands in your pockets. When you sit do not cross your legs with a foot pointing at him, or expose your groins to him even though they are hidden by your pants.

                On the other hand, you should wait patiently if the master is late -- even for hours! If you think this is unfair, you are probably not ripe for great arts. There are stories of great masters who purposely arrived late, not for hours but for days, and then passed on their secrets to the few wise, patient students. Although it seldom happens nowadays, it will reflect a splendid grasp of chi kung and kungfu culture if you and your classmates stop whatever you are doing, stand up respectfully, bow and greet your master as he comes in.

                Do not ever make the fatal mistake of telling a master what or how to teach you. This is not only unbecoming, it is also very foolish, for you will be denying yourself the very purpose why you need him. If he is a master, he knows best what and how to help you attain your best results; he is able to see your needs and development in ways far beyond your limited perspective.

                Someone who teaches kungfu dance or gentle exercise for a living will probably care more for your fees than your respect, but a master whose art gives you good health, vitality, mental freshness and spiritual joy actually does not care whether you respect him more or your dog. But those students who have experienced the wonderful benefits of genuine kungfu and chi kung will understand that the respect given to the master is not only a sincere token of appreciation to the master for sharing his art, but also constitutes an ideal psychological state for the training to take place.

                ©Copyright2002. The Shaolin Wahnam Institute. All rights reserved
                Interesting. I always give DeCheng a hug when I first see him after months of being away. He never has a problem with it, and in fact, sometimes initiates it. And, well, personally, I treat everyone as my peer and equal. Unless they do something to lose my respect. (Which, sometimes, doesn't take much, lol).

                As for positioning myself when near him, it is not uncommon for my huge expanse of a waste of a body to lie scattered about the wushu guan, with limbs asunder, and chest panting, after a tough work out. My body position is the last thing on my mind after doing a work out. DeCheng sometimes is in a similar, but not as bad, position. We tend to work out fairly hard sometimes. Neither one of us truly care.

                As for making fatal mistakes, I guess I do that all the time. Sometimes he knows what he wants to teach me, sometimes he asks me what I want to learn and review. Some days all I feel like doing is sanda, other days, he wants to kill me with forms.

                But, there are some good points in this diatribe. I do suggest that everyone take a look at it. I guess I'm too old for this bowing down to other people shit.

                doc
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #9
                  Cookies?

                  From that Wahnam Repect Aaaaiii page.

                  In the east, it is customary for the teacher to arrive last and leave first. Interestingly, it is often the reverse in the west. The teacher, western in culture if not in race, often arrives the earliest, sweeps the floor and prepares cookies and drinks which he will serve during recess to his students, who will joke and laugh. At the end of the class, the teacher will stand at the door, shake the students' hands and thank them for their attendance. He will then throw away the garbage his students have left behind if he still has energy left, and check that everyone has gone home before he closes the door.
                  I dont really know what all this business is about Wahnam etc. But i stumbled on this thread and read over their Respect page.

                  Now I must say, Cookies and Drinks at recess? That would be tha shiat!

                  Hes having a serious dig at Western Culture there. That WKK guy really sounds like a wanka!

                  Jay

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Cookies and drinks. I've been missing something all these years. Gonna have to institute this new policy at the Shaolin Chan Wu Xue Yuan. Yes. Shake the students hands. Clean the floors. Thank them profusely. Throw the garbage out with a smile. And, of course, serve cookies and drinks.

                    That's it. The key to success. Damn, I knew I was missing something...
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #11
                      Hi, i can't be bothered to read the other thread for a while, i'll let you guys lay into my last comment. I just wanted to say one thing about it. I'm writing here because i can't be bothered to read your replies yet and i'll probaly get carried away again.

                      I just wanted to say. Sorry if i'm taking this too far. Sorry if i seem one sided and argumentative. I know some folks are very attached to the things we're discussing and it could get heated. I probaly come across as being arrogant but it is really easy to change my mind honestly. I get carried away myself. Certain comments seem to have the knack of sparking me off.

                      Anyway, just saying, sorry if i seem out of line and i will read your replies and i'm very open to knew ideas. Let me know if you think i should leave it. One last thing, any recommend books on this subject to help me understand martial monks and buddhism?
                      help me, i'm confused

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Anyway, just saying, sorry if i seem out of line and i will read your replies and i'm very open to knew ideas. Let me know if you think i should leave it. One last thing, any recommend books on this subject to help me understand martial monks and buddhism?
                        Well, you're not out of line, but you are out of the appropriate thread (LOL), so people might be getting a bit confused here. At least it's adding to my already 'overly confused" state.

                        No, you shouldn't leave it. It's a great discussion topic. Good level headed discussion leads to education, which is why we're all here in this forum.

                        As for books, to be frank, most of what I've read about Shaolin is shit. I wouldn't bother. "Grandmaster Demasco" has a book out on the Shaolin temple, which I haven't looked at, but that might be an interesting read. If you're looking for Buddhism, well, it's all over the site. Got lots of Buddhist stuff in the Foundations section, with more to come. Also, some interesting ebooks in the File Library. There's a lot in here just to get you started. But as for books on the temple, good luck.

                        Maybe we should write one, one day....
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #13
                          Whoa, hold up there, tie yer horses, pilgrim...

                          A cult? Man, you really are letting your imagination run away with you.

                          Now, I've never actually met WKK (yet... he hasn't come to England since I started training at Wahnam, but he's supposed to come visit soon), but since I'm the only guy here (I think) who actually trains / has trained at Wahnam, my two cents should have a pretty high exchange rate here.

                          I don't believe anything WKK is up to amounts, by any stretch of the imagination, to the creation of a cult. I know a fair bit about cults (I did a fair bit of research on them for a theatre production I co-wrote & directed about cults, mainly suicide cults), and trust me, there's nothing nearly that dangerous going on at Wahnam. For one thing, WKK keeps a fair bit of distance from all but a couple of his most senior inner-chamber students- he clearly values his privacy and that's not inkeeping with cult leader behaviour- usually a cult is encouraged to be as close as possible and even consider each other as family- it's the only way of evoking that much trust in people. It's really nothing more than a chain of MA schools with the usual sense of hero-worship that a single, charismatic chairman usually entails (just look at students of Shi Yan Ming, Yan Jwing-Ming, Shi Yan Zi or anybody else- they're always only too ready to sing the praises of their teacher).

                          As far as the whole showing respect to the master thing, I think it's only common sense, really. It's no more than could be expected of any teacher, of martial arts, sports, or even a schoolteacher, with the exception of a few idiosyncracies peculiar to Eastern culture. I mean, you wouldn't lie spreadeagled on the floor, legs akimbo, in an "inviting position" in front of anybody, would you... (would you?) Anyway, in class they're not exactly heavily enforced rules. There's not really a need for most of them (there sure aren't any teacups being handed around), and actually lying down is encouraged during the sparse relaxation periods, if the student thinks it necessary (and sometimes it is necessary- Wahnam training isn't as hard as Shaolin monks, but it ain't a walk in the park either). And yes, there is the occasional "WKK is so great" lecture, but it's no more than any MA instructor will tend to say about his master, and WKK's actual name is scarcely mentioned.

                          As far as WKK's claims, there's not really any reason to take too much notice of him. People who've actually studied with him mostly insist that learning from him was a life-changing experience, so I guess he must be a pretty good teacher. The qigong taught at Wahnam is pretty good in terms of getting a good chi flow going in not much time, so there must be some basis to the whole thing. Can WKK cure cancer? Heck, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Until I meet someone who has actually had cancer and been cured (or not) purely through WKK's qigong, I can't really make an informed opinion on the matter.

                          Basically, it's just like training at any MA school. At the Shaolin temple, you don't have to study Ch'an to learn gong fu, and at Wahnam, you don't have to take on any of WKK's bullshit to learn decent gong fu and qigong from him and his students. Those who do take on his views have their reasons, usually stemming from simply not having enough prior knowledge about Shaolin to have any other opinion about these things... put it down to simple lack of having researched other sources and asked questions. WKK's strength is in finding students who don't have much prior knowledge of Shaolin or MA in general. These people aren't really THAT interested in getting the full story, so for them it's easy enough to just take WKK's word for things. Fair enough, more power to them. The same is true of WKK himself- he thinks he knows what he thinks he knows, he's formed his opinions and he's going to stick by them. A lot of this, especially concerning the wuseng, is simple misinformation and there's not really much more to say on the subject. I don't think he does it out of any real malice or desire to control people's minds or anything, he's just following one of the golden rules of making moolah- establish your market and keep them with you.

                          Those of us who are looking for a more complete version of the facts realise that while Wahnam's not a bad MA school by any standards, there are a lot better places that can be found if you look harder. If you want to learn a more authentic, physically demanding take on Shaolin, go learn it from some monks who teach through hard work and dedication. If it's Southern Shaolin specifically that interests you, you'd probably be better off learning from a dedicated Hung Gar school that has a good firm lineage going back to Wong Fei Hung at least, if you want to get the whole modern system. A lineage to WFH shouldn't be too hard to verify. Just make sure the sifu knows the details (the names, at the very least) of the teachers inbetween.

                          BTW, my report, for those of you who are interested, should be completed soon. DEFINITELY sometime this week. This post basically makes up the most part of the Wahnam section of it, but there's still more to come. Doc, if I finish writing up the full document, is there a chance you could put it up on the site somewhere?
                          "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            lol

                            for someone who doesnt know wkk at all and has never met him you sure have alot to say about how he is, how he does things, why he does them and where its all going..

                            but whatever, just remember there woody your not the only one here who knows about wahnam, so you trained with wahnam..pfft so what..i scoff at that like you scoffed when i said ive been training for a few months..

                            i dont care how long youve trained with good ole dan hartwright, me and alot of the others here know things you dont

                            those "crazy senior inner chamber disciples of the cosmic crazyness" your talking about are 2-3 year students..dans only been wkks student for 3 years there bucko, and ronan a little less..with darryl and some of the others a little further behind or ahead..but none of them are real long time students at all..wow 2-3 years wow thats some crazy stuff...you gotta be kidding me they arent grandmasters yet?!?!? wow man i cant believe that sob wkk has only named them masters after those 3 long years of hard work..man what a miseralble **** that guy is..damn B

                            ****ing ridiculous..

                            this whole convo about wkk is ridiculous..i wonder if it will ever end here on russbo..

                            i guess im just gonna have to go out and worship some hooters girls and claim they can cure my anger management problems..

                            i mean what else can i do?!?!?
                            "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              i guess im just gonna have to go out and worship some hooters girls and claim they can cure my anger management problems..
                              LOL.

                              Maestro, having spent some time worshiping the "ladies" there, I can assure you, they won't cure a damn thing.

                              They have more than enough trouble curing their own problems.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


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