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  • Shaolin Kung Fu - really fighting?

    The debate i'm going to try and start here is inspired by a book, "barefoot zen". The idea behind the book is that after the first burning of the shaolin temple the real reason for shaolin became distorted and turned into the street performance inspired martial art we have today that is far removed from its original buddhist ideals.

    The author claims the original shaolin kung fu wasn't designed for fighting. The system was a matter of grappling in two man forms that induced a meditative state that aided in overcoming our animal instincts and fears. He found the common denominater in most martial arts comes down to a few very similar sets that work much better as grappling sets than as striking and blocking sets. In fact, they don't seem to work at all as striking and blocking sets, which is what led to so much confusion in karate cricles in the past.

    The grappling involves recieving force from the agressor and redirecting it without using force so that they end up putting themselves into locks and falling to the ground. This way, no karma is generated. Touch reaction is also far superior to sight and no pre arranged methods must be memarized. Only the method of redirecting force must be cultivated.

    Basically though, you need to read the book to understand fully. The foundation of his argument however, lies in his knowledge of buddhism. This is in fact the spark that triggered him to study the arts in a new and different way. This is also what i'd like to debate.

    A buddhist monk is not allowed to harm any living creature. The buddhist monk cultivates his mind so that he will not judge any other living person. The premise, i believe, for a monk hurting a murderer is that he is ending his live in order to prevent further accumilation of bad karma and to prevent him hurting anyone else. The problem with this is, the monk would not go that far down the road. He wouldn't judge the karma of the murderer. He might step in between him if he saw an act of violence but the buddhist vows prevent him from hurting this murderer. The monk wouldn't crush an ant if he could help it.

    Can you explain to me then why a monk would think scientifically on the matter of striking somones vital points in order to induce death? Can you explain to me why a monk would learn to weild a deadly sharp sword in wickedly violent manner. Why, would a monk, devoted to enlightenment spend so much time developing methods to harm other beings. Why, did buddha not tell his followers to learn self defense methods?

    Fighting of this sort induces karma. Karma is generated by your thoughts and your actions. It is carried out by your sub concious. Why would a monk, trying to free him self from karma purposely cultivate methods to induce bad karma? There were no reasons to? Walking meditation? Meditative sets? Fine, but methods of striking and killing living creatures? Sorry, i don't believe it. What's your view?
    help me, i'm confused

  • #2
    im not a shaolin guy but i do know many of the monks there at one time were army members or even generals. So its natural they would have some form of physical training and battlefield experience. Heck even that they would share skills.

    Also, you have to remember that some monks were sent to the south to fight pirates as well - using pole and other things if i remember? Maybe one of the guys can help on this.

    I know one good reason to learn to strike - either hit someone real hard, or use a sword - otherwise you will be killed Do you really think grappling around on a battlefield is efficient? Most guys just learned how to stab with a long spear. Even samurai used to learn to grapple if they lost their weapons, but that was because they had heavy armour on. They also trained in ways of knocking others over as its hard to move in armour.

    Anyway m sure one of the guys will help - i think from what i hear that book is a lil controversial in some places

    dave
    simple and natural is my method,
    true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

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    • #3
      The question you seem to be neglecting is, "what is a monk doing on the battle field in the first place??". You shouldn't believe all the folk stories you read about. One of the few things we can tell for sure is what they were like, they were budhists and that prohibits striking. The eight fold path prohibits a buddhist from harming other sentient beings.

      The monks themselves had a hell of a lot more restrictive rules piled on top of the eight fold path. Can you explain why they would ignore their budhist teachings and strike pirates and why they would endure the bad karma from such acts when they spend their entire life trying to transcend karma?
      help me, i'm confused

      Comment


      • #4
        lol!

        if my temple gets attacked by bandits do you think i am gonna stand aside, say "buddha bless you" and welcome them? While they rip down all the murals, burn all the buildings and steal the food/money? possibly beat up or kill my monk brothers and have their way with any female nuns there?

        If some of the monks were once military dont you think it would be kinda useful to know some of that skill INCASE something like that happened?

        Also, im not ignoring the fact, but youre not recognising that from the late middle ages on there has been documentary evidence of Shaolin martial arts including the fact that there can be verified shaolin teachings even in the temple today.

        Traditional chinese MA includes striking AS WELL AS grapling. Thats why there is striking Qin Na (locking and grabbing skills) as well as Shuai Jiao which is like chinese wrestling (looks similar to judo). For sure dropping someone on their head is a very good way of ending a fight But to do that on a battlefield with swords and spears around is just silly.

        Also as far as the monks rescuing the emperor - its VERIFIABLE in chinese history (as far as i know) - there is even a stone tablet dating back to that time in shaolin if i am correct (doc?)

        Like i said, i dont even train shaolin, my skills dont come from there (one has a kinda "link" to southern shaolin which is unprovable) so im not really bothered one way or the other. Grappling is a great skill - the little i know i have used successfully numerous times. But sometimes you just gotta smack down man

        dave
        simple and natural is my method,
        true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

        Comment


        • #5
          also with regards to the monks and vows - you forget there are monks, lay monks, disciples and lay disciples... all have different vows. Some vows are obligatory and some are not depending on what position you are. Otherwise there wouldnt be any monks who (during the cultural revolution or even burning of the temple before) got married or have kids would there

          Maybe one of the shaolin guys can explain it in more detail - i dunno what im talking about really

          dave
          simple and natural is my method,
          true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok Dave. The most lay buddhist guy must follow the eight fold path if he is to succeed in the cessation of suffering which is the reason for being a buddhist. After that the rules just keep adding up. If the temple was going to be burned down by criminals then that is exactly what a buddhist monk would let them do. The temple is not as important as their life.

            From a lamas own mouth i've read that if somone went to kill him he'd rather let the guy kill him then kill the aggressor. Their are always exceptions to the rule... The nuns are being raped, do we stand there and do nothing or intervene. Obviously this is an extreme situation and not one the monks dwell on or prepare for just encase. Neither would it happen very often or i imagine the monks would move pretty sharpish.

            The monks would not entertain imaginary thoughts let alone violent thoughts so how you expect them to develop a martial art i don't know.

            I'm not saying there isn't a shaolin martial art. There probaly is. I do think though that if it exists it is a relatively modern invention and if developed by monks; these monks have gone off the original track. It is easy to see how people would learn the shaolin grappling methods and add their own fighting tactics into the equation to create a martial art for suitable for use by those not bound by buddhism.

            The simple facts are:
            1. There were no more reasons than any other human being for a monk to learn how to defend themselves.
            2. Buddhism at the most basic level disallows harm to sentient beings.
            3. The buddhist monk wouldn't spend time inventing a system so that they can harm other beings better.
            4. The temple would be a very important place and would be run very strictly. Why would they bother harbouring those who can only think of how to more efficiently harm others.
            5. The buddhist monk is trained not to fear or think of imaginary combat scenarios. Therefore they would not see the need to train for imagined dangers.
            6. History is full of lies, myths and half truths.
            7. There are also plenty of self centered reasons that could be found for the chinese to want to promote martial arts and chinese culture.
            8. If a lay person on the street doesn't need a weapon why would a buddhist monk??

            Finally, buddhists are non violent and always have been non violent. They always will be and this is because if they are violent then they are not following the buddhist eight fold path.

            What was the shaolin temple? A mahayana buddhist temple. This school of buddhism developed into chan, which became known as zen in Japan.
            help me, i'm confused

            Comment


            • #7
              interesting

              i have no knoweledge on buddhism so i cant reply to any of that... maybe arhat or someone else can?

              But an interesting thing is that its a FACT that for example: a few hundred years ago, a fleeing ex-royal family fled south and took refuge in the Jook Lum temple. Their skill was called Chu Gar (Chu family skill) took hold there and was passed down thru the order. Now no matter for fighting or whatever it became known as Jook Lum and Chu Gar southern praying mantis. Which is one of the MOST efficient southern MA systems and has been passed on by the chinese Hakka people who it is KNOWN migrated from the north to the south. if you look up the history you can see it. This is not legendary stuff lol

              Also its known that many members of secret societies such as the Heaven and Earth society and other places took refuge in temples and even used their connection (real or false) to "shaolin" to bolster their cause to the populace.

              Again, there could be many instances where a monk taught some skill to a disciple or student who was NOT a monk. Then the skill is passed on outside as a FIGHTING skill as well as for health. if we look back in history we see wong fei hung and wong kei ying and others of that calibre - even the "iron monk" who is famed for creating or teaching the hung gar iron wire set. All were legitimate and real people who passed on their skill - even the famed "10 tigers of Guangdong" and others.

              Even in pak mei, cheuing lai chuen studied li gar and lung ying skill before being beaten in combat by a monk. So he left to follow him and learned pak mei from his teacher. This AGAIN is a verifiable fact, even though it happened in the last 150 years. Yau kung mun is another style that has a similar conception.

              From what little i have heard about Chan it seems very interesting. in some ways it seems similar to the buddhist traditions form tibet and india, but others also more like Daoism, which places a great amount in physical and spiritual cultivation. But like i said i dont know anything about it.

              i dont know if you train karate or anything? But if you have ever seen/done any chinese Qin Na or wrestling its very clear how many of the moves in the kata can be used for striking OR grappling - it just depends if your teacher knows them OR you can work them out. So i think a lot of it is based on your level of understanding.

              Regarding your idea of monks in a battle - i can esaily think of the royal family or whoever calling upon some great retired generals to assist in strategy and other things.

              i think maybe it will be better for you once someone who trains under a monk can shed some light on things

              dave
              simple and natural is my method,
              true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

              Comment


              • #8
                your missing..

                your missing the point dave

                your not even answering his question..

                this is a common problem on discussion forums..people dont know the answers to the questions so they just "do there best"

                when really its their worst..because it just distances other readers and the thread starter from the original topic..

                ANYWAY

                the point bungle

                can be very simply put

                karma is dependent soley on the mind

                mind controls everything, your actions..your feelings..everything

                there is a saying that you should really meditate on

                "to a perfect man, everything is right under heaven"

                now not everyone has the luxury of understanding this with the quickness like i seemed to when i first read it..

                but what it means is that when youve attained a certain level of understanding

                you cant do any wrong..or any right, because you realise that right and wrong..black and white..duality is nothing more then an illusion, just like everything else in the mundane realm

                i suggest you read some taoist literature, then read some more buddhist literature..not "barefoot zen" by the newage Mr. bonefied dick head

                just read some stuff that was written about by the sages of old, because with out these peeps your beloved author of that book your always reffering to wouldnt have anything to get rich off of

                anyway..hope this helps atleast steer this thread in the right direction

                btw confucian lit ownz to..and maybe dave could help you out with some islamic stuff..dunno how he got so off topic being the big muslim that he is..but still he prolly knows some good stuff you could read to further your understanding of subjects such as these

                peace
                "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bungle, I've often thought the same about the clashing of buddhism and kung fu.

                  It's obvious the two clash.. one stressing non-violence, the other 'self-defense' at the minimum. Any buddhist monk would rather be killed than kill. there's no debating that. Learning self defense for a buddhist would be useless, and since all shaolin monks are buddhists before martial monks (right?), learning such a thing would be in vain.. so why learn it in the first place?

                  I wonder what a monk would say to this?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i suggest you read some taoist literature, then read some more buddhist literature..not "barefoot zen" by the newage Mr. bonefied dick head
                    "bonefied" is spelled "bonafide". But I like your advice Vince.

                    It's good.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #11
                      ok maestro. You too have missed the point. You too need to read more on buddhism. www.buddhanet.net. Go read. The foundation to buddhism is always the 4 noble truths and the eight fold path. The eight fold path clearly states you cannot harm a sentient being.

                      Your also missing the point on the development of a martial art. A monk would not have the frame of mind required to develop a martial art.

                      The state of mind your talking about Maestro can only be attained by following the buddhas teachings. You cannot harm sentient beings, in fact you would never be in a position where you would want to. It's not a case of achieveing enlightenment and then doing what you like because nothing really matters.

                      Maestro when there is no karma there is no mind per say to control it.
                      help me, i'm confused

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        what is good...

                        ...what is wrong, what is evil, what is right...

                        These are questions that can only be asked by one who has not attained, or by one who has attained but is helping others...these questions speak to a sort of reverse engineered concept of how the universe is to be interpreted so that those who have no clue yet can get clued in. An enlightened man can do no evil. It's impossible by virtue of their attainment.

                        I have been thinking about this for quite some time. I was about to address it in the Bodhidharma thread.

                        Another thing I would like to point out is, you have to look at Shaolin for itself, not as part of something else, for it's definition. It's irrelevant to look at, say, White Horse temple and say, Shaolin must have been exactly like that, because they are both Buddhist temples...you could draw some parallels to be sure, but you can't dismiss something that does not agree with your data set derived from White Horse Temple.

                        I have not read Barefoot Zen so it is unfair of me to offer any crticisms or comments about the work, the gong fu he studied to draw the conclusions he did, etc. etc.

                        But from the Ch'an perspective, one can see the point of Shaolin gong fu being a Buddhist exercise to attain.

                        The whole not accepting violence merely returning it or rejecting the offer and the permutation of that idea that seems to be offered by Barefoot is bullshit- a play on words that misses the true point.

                        It's a difference of Buddhist understanding- it's why the Shaolin monks fought (mentally and physically- "How swift the Mongol sword!") and why many Tibetan monks died without a fight.
                        "Arhat, I am your father..."
                        -the Dark Lord Cod

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok, i don't do his book justice. Don't put his book down. Put me down.

                          I think i might continue this discussion tommorow. I'm tired and all i feel like doing is writing "FOR GODS SAKE YOUR WRONG, ADMIT IT!". But that wouldn't be fair. Buddhism is a complex issue. I guess we should really ask a buddhist monk his opinion on the matter. Maybe we should ask the Dalai Lama. The fact is though that essentially all buddhists understand the same thing because of the central teaching. The four noble truths. The eight fold path leads to the cessation of suffering and everyone starts there. huff..
                          help me, i'm confused

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the fact is...

                            ...you could ask the Dalai Lama. And you could ask Thich Naht Hahn. And you could ask Shi Yong Xin.

                            They might all have very different answers. And they are all "Buddhist Monks."

                            Don't you like ice cream?
                            "Arhat, I am your father..."
                            -the Dark Lord Cod

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              lil guy

                              Go eat your porridge ya lil ****er

                              lol
                              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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