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Taoist Literature or the lack thereof

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  • #16
    aren't you supposed to admit your ignorance of something before you can become a student of it?

    Originally posted by Blue Sky
    Can there be ignorant students of Taoism? Doesn't that statement contradict itself?

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    • #17
      Taoist Literature

      Originally posted by shaolinstylee
      Shenjen ( is that your phonetic for spirit in chinese?)

      You should start a few threads with some thoughts, I'll gaurantee some of them revert to chasing mormon girls out of church.. but I'm sure we'll get some good posts along the way.
      I had decided to ignore this site and did so for quite a while until the other day I received one of those automatic notices that someone had posted a reply regarding something I wrote. So of course my curiosity got the better of me and then I saw your invitation and decided to give it another try. First of all I'd like to thank Doc for doing a really great job on this site and keeping at it. It's got to be a time & effort consumer and it's a pleasure to see someone stick it out. Martial arts sites come and go all the time, this one seems to have the people behind it with the fortitude to maintain and continue to develop it. Keep up the good work.

      Shaolistylee:
      Without seeing the characters that was a good guess (?) on the name, it's Shen Jen or perhaps I should romanize it as ren, Spirit + Man. It's an allusion to the older tradition that gave rise to the Taoist Sheng or sage, when there were still shamans intracting with local villagers in the mountains and forests of China. I think this is an aspect of Taoist history that tends to get overlooked or outright ignored. Before there were sages there were shaman. Before there was an organized religion, there were people following the Way as it had been followed down through the ages. The roots of Taoism are very old, the earliest historical Taoist text is attributed to a minister of the founder of the old Shang-Yin dynasty in the 18th century B.C. The early writings are lost but the I Ching, alleged to have been written by the Chou dynasty founders, is also considered an ancestral Taoist text. Point is when the Tao Te Ching was written there was already a long tradition of Taoist throught and practices established but unformularized and unstructured. In fact, it wasn't until the second century A.D., that someone got around to organizing a formal structured Taoist religion. Of course by that time Buddhism, with it's tradition of monasticism, had become a force in China, exserting it's influence to the point that the founders of the Taoist religion incorporated many Buddhist elements into their system. Of course, the other side to that coin is that many Taoist elements found their way into Buddhist tradition, that's apparent if you read Ch'an & Zen writings.

      Here's a thought I'd like to kick around. I've been trying to trace the path of knowledge as it moved from India through Tibet into China and then on to Japan and other parts of Asia. Not only Buddhism & Taoism but martial techniques, medical practices, herbal medicine, etc. My question is that why did this knowledge circulate throughout asia but didn't seem to enter Europe until the 16th century?

      Looking forward to comments from all.

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      • #18
        well europe had its own knowledge, medicine and martial techniques. so did africa and the americas, and australia for that matter. it's not all that surprising to me. even in the 16th century buddhism and taoism never made much headway in europe, nor (as far as i know) did asian medicine and martial arts. trade between europe and just about anyone was extremely limited in the dark and middle ages, and i should think catholicism's disdain for other beliefs did the rest, well before and after the enlightenment.

        there was a martial art/competition called "pankration" in ancient greece, which some scholars think was brought to india by alexander and formed the basis of indian, and subsequently, some chinese martial arts, especially shaolin. it's an interesting theory but everything i've read on it (and, for that matter, just about any martial arts history) is very sketchy and inconclusive.
        Last edited by zachsan; 12-01-2004, 07:08 PM.

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        • #19
          One of my friends had an interesting definition for Daoism that seemed to take well with my Daoism class in university. Basically, Daoism is the body of traditions and wisdom indigenous to China. I think for discussion and academic study, you'd have to consider Confucianism as a whole separate monster. This definition kind of gets around the myth making machine that is Chinese culture, ie, Daoism has never really been a totally coherent and organized religion.

          In Japan there is the indigenous religion of Shinto. It is actually a lot like Daoism but when you ask a knowledgeable Japanese person what the difference is they'll say 'Well, one is Chinese, and the other is Japanese!' I suspect a lot of other indigenous, shaministic religions around the world exhibit similar traits; look at Hinduism, or the religions of tribal peoples. Each tradition has its own body of wisdom, medicine, etc.

          As for tracing the path of knowledge, I think this will be very difficult: lots of uncredible evidence and too many paths to count. For instance, much of the early development of Buddhism in China was influenced by countries like Bactria and the old Greek kingdoms in Central Asia; not all that was Buddhism came from India.
          -Jesse Pasleytm
          "How do I know? Because my sensei told me!"

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          • #20
            I'm reading an interesting book right now that theorizes that there was trade in the early 1000s between Asia, India, and Europe, then it goes into The Knights Templar and stuff, I know it isn't taoistic per se, but it got me thinking as to things as simple as noodles and such. Was that a transplant, or was it just plain inginuity of the same concept in different places.
            practice wu de

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            • #21
              Also, from what I've read (and it is limited) I concider my self taoistic in philosophy, but I have much reading that I'd like to do. I have a bunch of books on my xmas list, so I might lurk, and only chime in a little until I edumucateded (pun intended) my self more.
              practice wu de

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              • #22
                Pasta or tiao?

                undefinedundefinedundefined
                I was under the impression that the Polo brothers, Niccilo & Maffeo, brought back the method of making noodles on their first trip to China and introduced it to Venetian society sometime around 1270 or so. From there it spred to other parts of Italy and Europe. Many people think Marco Polo brought the knowledge of noodle making back with him but I think that has more to do with the fact that he wrote a book about his travels when he came back, something his father and uncle never did. Just goes to show you the power of PR. What's the name of the book you're reading? The Knights Templar were quite a crew and there is a ton of stuff written about them.

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                • #23
                  i do know that certain mystical traditions that showed up in europe, especially germany, around i think the 15th or 16th century, have some things in common with mystical taoism. i haven't read anything that indicates that was a real connection, though, although these traditions asserted that ultimately all religions had the same esoteric teachings at their cores. either they didn't get around too much or they had a knack for finding similarities where there were none.

                  from the reading i've done i've inferred that it wasn't so much that there were similarities between taoism and western mysticism, but more that western mystics felt compelled to claim ownership of a philosophy that came from halfway around the world.

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                  • #24
                    Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet: The Secret Naval War Between the Knights Templar and the Vatican.


                    found on amazon here
                    practice wu de

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                    • #25
                      I'm inclined to beleive that whole "mysticism in different cultures having similar roots" theory. I forget the name of the text, but there's a collection of early christian mysticist documents (i think they keep the originals in harvard divinity school, there was an article about them in shambalasun a couple months ago) which were comprised mostly of poetry and obscure meditation advice.

                      The poetry was primarily self contradicting in nature much like some zen works and parts of Chuang Tzu. In addition it seemed to express most of the same principles.

                      Of course, this sort of self-exploratory mysticism does not help the formation of a concrete religion for a theocratically governed region, and so the church did its best do destroy such works in the first millenium a.d. while it was doctrinizing the gospels and the rest of the new testament.

                      As for the knights templar, what did they expect was going to happen when they appointed a frenchman as their leader?
                      Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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                      • #26
                        it's called gnostic christianity, and what you may be referring to is the gospel of thomas.

                        gnostic christians (yes, there are still some today) love the idea that their teachings have lots in common with taoism. unfortunately, the basic premise of gnostic christianity is that an evil god (the god from the first testament of the bible) separated us from eternal happiness and brilliance, and that the good god (the god from the second testament) sent jesus to earth to give us the ability to return to unity with the good god. these are not parables but firm beliefs held by gnostic christians, and gnostics believe they are dealing with these and other deities in their daily practice. it would take quite a stretch of the imagination to somehow relate this to taoism.

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                        • #27
                          Interesting, thanks zach....

                          The problem here also is I think many people try to relate taoism the philosophy v. another religion, instead of taoism the religion v. another religion.. it seems to happen with buddhism in the west too.
                          practice wu de

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                          • #28
                            I applaud your handling of this matter

                            Please leave your unresolved emotions out of it. Your frustration at not being able to understand what I have written has no business manifesting itself as verbal anger and name-calling in what is supposed to be a dialogue on spiritual matters. Peace be with you my brother.
                            try The Secret of the Golden Flower translated by Thomas Cleary

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                            • #29
                              ?

                              i was going to leave it at "?" but apparently that's too short to be posted.

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                              • #30
                                Thanks stonerobe, I appreciate it.

                                Zach that's in reference to the begining of the thread, when someone called me a nazi because I've had fun burning my own text books and reccommended it to others to releive stress.
                                Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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