The transition towards wushu

[doc]

Oh Christ, don't get Arhat started on the WKK thing again, lol.

I can see it now. A new forum, just for that very issue. I'll have to buy another server...

[Lipster]

Ahaha.

Dao, you must have been asleep for a large portion of the site. You seriously haven't come across that, um, delicate issue here yet?

That topic keeps the forum ALIVE...

It's basically his freakish claims and his intolerance for anything other than himself...

[lester1/2jr]

RJW- true, but I think it's people from the west who are trying to bring back the martial aspects of tai chi now.

[shaolinstylee]

I know a few personally trying to really show the apps to taiji etc... it is really good stuff. Wushu seems to be the thing in China now.... and some of wushu is moving more and more acrobatic, which is fine to me, but we really need to try and save the traditional...

[RJW]

"people from the west who are trying to bring back the martial aspects of tai chi"
That's good. As I said I found the best teachers are the ones who don't advertise, the commercial ones were mostly (not all) in it for the $$$. Any one who knew a form taught it as exercise or karate instructors wanting to get in on the taiji craze started applying karate applications to the forms. It was kindah like instructors who taught karate, judo & aikido saying that they taught jeet kun do because it was an amalgamation of arts.

Ah but this is supposed to be about the declination of wushu in China from the long, hard traditional way to the new speedy, fancy way. In Japan after 1600 when Tokugawa Ieyasu ended the wars and settled the country combat became ways of perfecting the self, and later still after the shame of defeat in WW II the martial arts became more sport oriented. Perhaps it is the way of things…

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

Nobody want to practice like they did 100 years ago. Most of the people those day's had a good reason to train that hard...
I do want, and I have a good reason to...

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

I've been told, for example, that if Shi De Cheng, an older, more traditional gong fu oriented master, was being tested against his disciple, Shi Xing Wei, a younger, more contemporary trained monk, people would like Xingwei's performance more, because Xingwei can get through his wushu forms much faster and much more powerfully than Decheng can get through is older, more traditional forms. It's the nature of the forms, more than anything else.

Doc, are you saying de cheng fought xing wei?

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

people would like Xingwei's performance more, because Xingwei can get through his wushu forms much faster and much more powerfully than Decheng can get through is older, more traditional forms. It's the nature of the forms, more than anything else.

Like my master told me: kung fu is an art, wu shu is not, it is not more than a sport.

In my mind, wu shu is not a martial art, it is (like my master said) a sport...their is no application in wu shu, do you allready watch a wu shu tao by thinking of it, ok it is beautifull and all this, but not good for fighting.
People trained in wu shu are great athlete, but people trained in traditional form are warrrior.

For the one thing that I noticed that day, was the fact that each of these guys, actually knew little gong fu. True, they all have the basics down pat (the jibengong), and they all know some traditional forms (though, watching them go through something very basic and very traditional, such as Shao Hong Chuan, was interesting, as they all took their time going through it, step by step, trying to remember how the form progressed). All knew small traditional forms such as Tong Bei Chuan, and, one or two others, but, basically, two to four traditional forms was their entire traditional armamentarium. As for wushu, basically, each team member knew two or three forms; generally one animal form and one weapon form. Sometimes a team member knew a third contemporary form. And, they knew those perfectly. Absolutely perfectly. The other team members generally did not know all of what their colleagues did; in this way, the team maximized the number of wushu forms it knew, with the least amount of team members.

Like Shi xing zhuang said, we dont have enought time in one life to know a tao perfectly, he also said 3 tao for one enire life is enough, think of it, isn't it true? I dont think I would prefer knoing only 3 tao but it is true.

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

Mao tse tung was against traditional things, he wanted wu shu, and al this for one reason: POLITIC

[SongshanMonk]

I for one support the learning of traditional Shaolin rather than the newer contemporary Shaolin. I believe if I was still in my early teens then the contemporary would be more appealing. I really don't have a problem learning the contemporary stuff but what is the future of traditional Shaolin? Traditional Kung Fu is not pretty but the techniques are brutal. The movements are hard and short. However, Don't underestimate a wushu practitioner. They can be deadly with a spear or staff even in a fight.

Master Shi De Shan and Shi Xing Hao both teach Tong Bei in their schools. I know by personal experience that the forms are relatively the same, however, one teaches it different from the other. The change is only by a few movements during the form but 95% of the form is the same. Who is to say which is right or which is wrong? I would tend to believe that Shi De Shan is the most traditional out of the bunch but Shi Xing Hao has suprised me so much with his knowledge. He knows traditional Shaolin. Shi Xing Hao is like a walking library book at times. The whole point of this is to ask the question does teaching a shaolin form and changing a few movements considered traditional?

[shaolinstylee]

Forms are dynamic.. but should remane somewhat the same.. someone should see it and know basicly what you are doing (given they know the form).

[dogchow108]

interesting thing, this whole form issue, in eastern MA. i, personally, love practicing forms. it is the visual aspect of forms which made me interested in chinese martial arts rather than other martial arts...but to be completely honest..i think that the idea of a routine, be it a fighting or performance form, has just done terrors to martial arts beyond anything that the gun could possibly come close to.

***disclaimer*** I Love Practicing Forms ***disclaimer***

what is a form? a Martial Arts Form is basically like a sentence, constructed of words, and spoken in a certain accent or dialect...even language. if you hear a sentence...does that mean you could not have understaood the message had you heard it another way? is there not more than one language in which the message can be communicated? Does a form have to remain evolutinarily stagnant for centuries?

other than for aesthetic purposes, i have no reason to remember the techniques in the Da Hong Chuan in the sequence that i am learning them in. what is important is the theme of the form as i am learning it, and the content...the physical application of what i am doing. i think of the form as a system....really, you could probably just learn that one form and and have more technique than you will ever really need or use, especially in todays societies, for the rest of the fights you ever get into.

but alas, people are attracted to pretty things. this is why Mao has done such a good job of destroying the shaolin martial arts heritage of china with communist wushu.

heres another viewpoint. basically, wushu is impressive...which in my opinion is the antithesis of what a "good form" is. if you were to be practicing a form, unknowingly watched by your worst enemy, and he could tell from every movement what you do, and he could see every thing you do and to what extent you could do it... in a way, has your form practice not completely betrayed you? really old forms have tons and TONS AND TONS of hidden stuff in them, which i simply cant believe that wushu practitioners have the remotest clue of unless they train outside their cirriculum. since these things, which are often even simply concepts, are not visible to anyd egree...then it really shouldnt matter where, even the physical ones, they are in the form.

yet that is what most people are practicing...stuff that shows off...Wushu! and what has pretty much made wushu the empire and traditional martial arts the victims that they are today? FORMS

the shaolin we practice in class...if my teacher sees me doing it fast at this point, he laughs, and when hes not laughing, i know he just thinks its completely rediculous! in mot saying that i practice my Shaolin as slow as i practice taiji, but i am not practiting it with "blinding speed" especially not at this point because i would ahve false confidence behind it.

finally, one more point i want to make before going on...i see a lot of people...and really this is not necessarily aimed at the internet martial arts community (tho there are some of these out there), but rather moreso at people i know in real life, i see a lot of these ppl that kind of lie to themselves and to others. true- a traditional form is probably a better training tool than a contemporary one...simply because they were invented with different atmospheses and intentions. BUT!!!!!!!!! some people just kinda use the "i wanna learn traditional" so ppl will automatically think about them' ok, so this guy wants to learn how to fight". these guys will criticize wushu, and new shaolin all day long, but when they come across stuff...they either really end up collecting them (forms) like mental antiques, or just suddenly realize what a traditional form is in reality: NOTHING its the training behind it that counts.



where am i getting, you guys are probably wondering...ok, i had to spew that out for background information. this is what i am propose...

wushu has begun the process, from what i hear, of merging with the shaolin cirriculum. instead of sharing this space, one of the two is dominating while the other is being choked out. now, this is where that disclaimer comes in, i think its totally okay to just learn forms to know them as mental antiques. really, thats my honest opinion. i, personally, would rather not do it, but i totally understand why someone would. why is there no effort to do soemthing like what has been done with wushu....teach the traditional forms..even have copetitions...but judge them differently...as in score by whether or not all the visual details are there...score by what kind of footing/power the practitioner is issuing...and by the way, judging power is not necessarily as hard as many people think. a good taiji practitioner can tell when someone has done something with real power and not just wobble their bodies to look like they did. basically, i think ive said enough for you guys to understand where im coming from.

I think, if people did this, that would do many good things:

- it would satusfy this "traditional form" craze ppl have
- it would save many teachers the work of weeding out technique-serious vs non technique-serious students
- maybe it will open some ppl's minds about what martial arts are at least supposed to look like...with
any luck wushu itself will go down in popularity thus rendering this idea obsolete


theres other advantages that can come from this....and realy im posting this in hopes of maybe encouraging ppl to step off the traditional=good vs wushu=bad bandwagon here and start looking for other ways to see it.

again, i love to practice forms, guys, i like it because they keep me energized and well, and they give me stuff to think about. out of all the Doc Fai Wong lineage CLF out there (who i actually dont even know if i like), i only know their five animal form. i guess you can say ive just kinda collected that one out of curiosity, and its fun for me to do and show. i have that kind of stuff, and then i have my more martial training, which i am by far more serious about but do not necessarily think is a superior decision to just learning forms.

well i could go on, but i guess ive said enough...peace!

[lester1/2jr]

forms or not, if your teacher doesn't teach you how to fight it's not a kung fu class is it?

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by lester1/2jr
forms or not, if your teacher doesn't teach you how to fight it's not a kung fu class is it?

actually, it IS "kung fu". Its just not a MARTIAL ARTS class; its a forms class then.

find the definition/meanign of kung fu ....also, find how many times I wrote kung fu in my post



and really thats kinda the whole point in my post, is that you can seperate martial arts and forms, yet they are both "kung fu"...man i hate to even use that phraise in non-personal communication anymore

[doc]

actually, it IS "kung fu". Its just not a MARTIAL ARTS class; its a forms class then.

I think it all depends upon what your definition of "martial arts" is; and, of course, your definition of "kung fu".

The amount of combat applications in forms work is incredible. I think it would be difficult to not define the practice of form work, as martial arts training.