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  • #16
    ah hem

    confucius said that if he had 50 more years to live hed study the book of i

    study the i ching
    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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    • #17
      OK, so now I kinda see also where the whole camp thing is as far as the monks running around the temple for the most part... Is there a significant amount of monks from other "camps" still even around in the temple?
      practice wu de

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      • #18
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The fact that Su Xi and Su Yuan were not interested in "taking care of temple business", and, the choice of the other members of the committee as being allegedly "fairly ineffectual", gave a young Yongxin the ability to essentially manage the affairs of the temple on his own."
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        So Doc, from what you said above Suxi and Su Yuan put Yong Xin where he is today. If they wanted to have more to do with "taking care of temple business", Yongxin wouldn't of had the chance to take over. If they just wanted to live as "ordinary monks" why didn't they put someone else in charge, from there camps. They must've liked the job Yongxin was doing if they allowed him to have those resposiblites.
        Last edited by Ted; 09-18-2003, 04:02 PM.

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        • #19
          not exactly Ted

          Originally posted by Ted
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The fact that Su Xi and Su Yuan were not interested in "taking care of temple business", and, the choice of the other members of the committee as being allegedly "fairly ineffectual", gave a young Yongxin the ability to essentially manage the affairs of the temple on his own."
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          So Doc, from what you said above Suxi and Su Yuan put Yong Xin where he is today. If they wanted to have more to do with "taking care of temple business", Yongxin wouldn't of had the chance to take over. If they just wanted to live as "ordinary monks" why didn't they put someone else in charge, from there camps. They must've liked the job Yongxin was doing if they allowed him to have those resposiblites.
          I think what Doc is pointing at is that neither of those two monks, Yuan or Xi, were interested in political machinations...and one might be able to make the case that neither were their camps- their concern was just simply being Shaolin monks teaching those who were under them the ways, which is why they were so beloved. Yong Xin was using that to his advantage, and put himself in the right position. In cases like this, if you have any experience in politics, people often make moves behind what's called closed doors. Yong Xin was probably very good at getting things done and keeping up a good face. That's why their efforts are successful, when on the surface of things one would think there was no way Yong Xin could be abbot, then, in effect, there's a coup... Xing Zhen quite possibly did not even realize what YX was gunning for- abbocy. I don't think you can blame them for not seeing it coming, since it wasn't in their realm to even think someone would set them up like that.
          "Arhat, I am your father..."
          -the Dark Lord Cod

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          • #20
            Yeah, the only thing is if you liked what he was doing, you would have just called him ambitious, rather than using the word coup to describe it.
            practice wu de

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            • #21
              So Yongxin is the only one to blame? Suxi, Su Yuan and the committee couldn't do anything about it? I just find that hard to believe.

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              • #22
                Yong Xin

                I think Yong Xin was always going to have it tough. As abbot of a buddist temple in a communist country such as China, there are many hidden obstacles that lay in his way. These would have been from the local government, national government, media and the population around shaolin. Let's also face it that since the early 80's shaolin turned into a circus. The kitsch capatalism that grew out of the local wushu schools and thousands of tourists created a situation that couldn't be allowed to continue indefinately at the birthplace of Chan. Yong Xin removal of this environment was sure to get him a lot of flack. Now it is known that he does have some political connections and this is IMHO for the best for shaolin as the last thing the temple needed was to be isolated and at loggerheads with the government. Today, the renovations are nearly complete and the temple is looking the best it has in 100 years. There's been a changing of the guard in terms of some new faces loyal to the new abbot. Some of the old guard have moved on but from what I can tell there's a feeling that there's only one chief in the village. I doubt many other monks could have taken over and done what he has in these circumstances. Lets see how the next 20 years pan out.

                WushuSpear

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                • #23
                  what's so hard to believe?

                  Originally posted by Ted
                  So Yongxin is the only one to blame? Suxi, Su Yuan and the committee couldn't do anything about it? I just find that hard to believe.
                  What Doc is saying without saying it is that neither Su Xi nor Su Yuan had the political saavy to see Yong Xin's play- and it was too late for them, or their people, to do anything about it once the play was made. It's not like Yong Xin walked around with a bullhorn and lapel pin declaring his intentions to side step thousand year old traditions and seat himself as Abbot over other more qualified monks. He made his plans in secret, and set up his chess pieces in such a way as to execute this deception adroitly.

                  Wushu- there are monks in Shaolin that are infinitely more qualified to be Abbot. Shaolin used to be a unique Buddhist institution, CH'AN Buddhism was born there. Now, it represents a Buddhist hegemony in the rest of China. I am happy that happened but for strictly selfish reasons because it drove many monks out of her halls where we can stumble upon them or seek them out. Outside of China, they are free to return Shaolin to being Shaolin.

                  That is why, as part of the political tradeoff that Yong Xin engineered, all new Shaolin monks must train at the Beijing college, where Yong Xin went, and the head of which helped secure his abbocy. Ask yourself, does that make sense, that the birthplace of Ch'an would send her monks elsewhere to learn about Ch'an? Having been to Shaolin, and having attempted to discuss Ch'an philosophy with some of these 'monks,' they didn't have the faintest clue. I knew more about Shaolin and her history than they did. Yan Ming recognized some of the ones I was talking with, and when I remarked at how little they knew he just looked down, chuckled slightly, and said they used to be janitors. Then we went to go see our Ch'an Grandmaster who was so scared to greet his disciple he almost did not attend the audience with Su Xi, who came out to sit with us for a good 45 minutes or so. Once Su Xi came, then others knew they could come too, because Yong Xin couldn't move against him. Had the power shifted to Su Xi's camp, as Doc puts it, there are several monks therein who could arguably do far better of a job preserving the true Shaolin. There are certainly monks there who have deeper understandings of Ch'an, and way better gong fu.

                  If Shaolin isn't a circus now, I don't know what it is. People pay fees to enter her gates, black belts test karate before her Abbot while their instructors are awarded bullshit titles and lob veiled disses at her legitimate scions, one of her most senior monks is thrown in jail and strong armed, and he's not the only one, forcing him to choose exile in Vienna, and Doc didn't mention him by name but I know who he was referring to also being held, some monks are given blank checks to write and do as they please, while others catch major flack simply because they refuse to participate in empty discipleships or declare open support ($$$$$) for whom they see to be an usurper...and Doc didn't even mention poor Yan Chang, who was so distressed by Yong Xin's demands he was hospitalized- although now it looks like an arrangement has been made over Hong Kong. Some of the monks Yong Xin is sending out into the world to teach genuine Shaolin kung fu don't even know Xiao Hong Chuan.

                  There's a lot more I could say too...
                  "Arhat, I am your father..."
                  -the Dark Lord Cod

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                  • #24
                    Read my post again. And when you're finished, read it again.

                    Don't read the words. Read into the words. Feel the words....

                    There's much more to "learn" than what you see.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #25
                      I understand some of the things Yongxin has done, I just find it hard to believe that Senior monks couldn't see what Yongxin was doing. This wasn't something that happened over night. It kinda makes me think that the committee was really clueless and maybe thats why XingZheng didn't name one of them as abbott. Maybe he knew they couldn't do the job alone? Maybe thats why he named the committee?

                      I don't know. It just makes you think.
                      Last edited by Ted; 09-19-2003, 11:43 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Honestly, what can we do about it now... Encourage other monks to take a stand... I don't think so.
                        Maybe just waiting and going for the ride will suck, but I don't think there are many options.
                        practice wu de

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ted
                          I understand some of the things Yongxin has done, I just find it hard to believe that Senior monks couldn't see what Yongxin was doing. This wasn't something that happened over night. It kinda makes me think that the committee was really clueless and maybe thats why XingZheng didn't name one of them as abbott. Maybe he knew they couldn't do the job alone? Maybe thats why he named the committee?

                          I don't know. It just makes you think.
                          No Abbot does his job alone...the committee was set up to be basically clueless...that's why Yong Xin was able to pull a fast one- he knew that Su Xi and Su Yuan would not be interested in watching him like a hawk...
                          "Arhat, I am your father..."
                          -the Dark Lord Cod

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                          • #28
                            there is a quote at the end of "Then name of the Rose". I've never even read it but the author was on NPR about a year ago. Anyway, the rough translation from I think Latin is that the Church would go on only in name, it would still be CALLED whatever it was, the catholic church, but ONLY in name." The caller who called in said that the priest who translated it for him was furious at it's implication.
                            "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

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                            • #29
                              Interesting

                              This is an interesting debate

                              I see you're points Arhat and these do get me thinking. I don't think we can say that there are better qualified people capable of being good abbots as the job comes with some many different pressures in a wierd country such as China. No one can say 100% that a well respected martial buddistist monk , which there are any of, would make a good abbot. I think being the head of a religious order require more than spiritual devotion but also worldly savy and stratagy. The pope is not only a religious leader but a statesman and head of state.

                              From what I're and heard, the decline in buddist knowledge isin't a new thing and cannot be soley blamed on Yong Xin. The fact that there's now a standerdized path for one to follow I think will improve the level of buddist knowledge and practice. One must remember thew government does play a role in how 'buddist' the temple can go. The commercialization of Shaolin started years ago long before Yong Xin and I think I something he should still deal with. IMHO I think monks shouldn't have schools and businesses but that just me. I'm sure that if he acted to curb this he would get even more flack. I believe, and I could be totally wrong here, that once you've made vows to a temple you stay there and leave the rest of the world behind you. It's not a job. Monks having businesses and franchises just doesn't make sense to me.

                              Keep well all
                              WushuSpear

                              P.S. I know my posts make it seem that I'm fo the abbot. I guess I've always liked the underdog and feel for the guy as he's got a lot of flack from a lot of quaters. Maybe I like the fact that he's young and could bring the temple into the 21st century and returning it to it's buddist foundations. I'd like to think that the man has a grand masterplan and is misunderstood like the emperor in 'Hero'. Only time will tell.

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                              • #30
                                I don't know. It just makes you think.

                                "No Abbot does his job alone...the committee was set up to be basically clueless...that's why Yong Xin was able to pull a fast one- he knew that Su Xi and Su Yuan would not be interested in watching him like a hawk..."

                                Arhat -
                                Of course he doesn't do the job alone. Wasn't that the purpose of the committee, to take over running the temple? So in your above statement your saying Su Xi and Su Yuan are/were clueless? No wonder why Xing Zheng didn't name either them? Do you think it was Yongxin that named the committee? If he had that much control over Xing Zheng why wouldn't he just go for broke? Who do you think should've been named abbott?

                                Where do Su XI And Su Yuan fit into the Buddist/martial monk thing? I get the impression they are more along the lines of martial? Maybe thats got something to do with it?

                                Like I said I DON'T KNOW. I'm clueless myself.

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