Shaolins vs. UFC/Pride

[LeiYunFat]

Well aren't you a usual advocate of how much spirituality has been bled from Shaolin? I don't see the difference between doing a from with no mind and hitting the bag with no mind, or grappling someone the same way. If a murderer goes into a typical Shaolin school now, he'll probably leave as one. If someone with real integrity, spirituality, and intelligence goes into a MMA school, he'll probably leave the same way.

Basically, the "art" portion nowadays is the art of "conquering self" which I think is the biggest aspect of the spirituality part. As they are now, I don't think most MA lessons can give you that if you don't actively pursue it. But then again, I could be wrong.

I could be getting into philosophical bullshit here, but a big key to conquering self is to forgo pride, am I correct? It's quite humbling when you're the worst, most uncoordinated person in your performance MA school, as is being tapped out again and again. In this sense, they are both conductive to spiritual development. The rest is up to the person...

[Fei Hung]

Lol iron palm and hard chi gong is stupid. I trained it every morning for the time i was in China. The bretheing techniques were the only cool thing since it saturates your body in Oxeygen causing a slightly siffernt state of mind.

There is a simple reason traditional martial artists dont fight in UFC and such. They tried and all got knocked out. ANYONE can fight in MMA and represent any style they wish. If you traditionaly train just one art you cant keep up with the current level of the compeitiors in MMA and they mix many styles together.

In the famous words of bruce lee dont wrestler a westler or box a boxer.

Also i think there is a load of art envolved in grappling and striking just because you dont hold some silly stance doesnt mean its not art. Everyone does what they do differntly and their body is the canvas there is a reason everyone looks they way they look and a reason behind how you fight in your training. Plus muay thai made my body hard as a rock and im as ripped as bruce lee from my methods of training and when i fight its art because every strike i throw is the journey of my training ive been on in the las 2 years in Asia. and the progress of fitness since the day i left canada and lost over 50 pounds.

That is true art not holding some stance like a million other people who did the exact same stance, That kinds of like taking a picture of a painting.....

[arhat]

I think alot of what you posted is bullshit, but a lot is accurate.

More and more TCM players are coming into MMA these days and doing it.

Clearly where an advantage lay with MMA practitioners is that one of the major deciding factors in a fight is conditioning and what you train for. When you have most MAs not training as fighters, but training to fight if they have to, or basically hobbyists who just want to feel alittle more confident walking down the street, there is a difference and it showed. To this day few people in MA actually train as fighters or competitors. 1hr classes with lots of bullshit. I think this is where MMA training shines.

UFC players could actually learn a lot from something like Shaolin, especially in regards to improving their kicking and punching, which rarely develop into expressions of something like the 6 harmonies. That would be an improvement to MMA, the same way that JJ embellished the ground game. It's gonna happen too, because eventually all things shake out and a lot of what people say about TCM is just rhetoric and doesn't mean much.

I think you could argue that as far as practicality goes, some aspects of MMA is gong fu. How do people think these styles came to be in the first place. From here, from there, a little of this, some of that....

Lol iron palm and hard chi gong is stupid. I trained it every morning for the time i was in China. The bretheing techniques were the only cool thing since it saturates your body in Oxeygen causing a slightly siffernt state of mind.

There is a simple reason traditional martial artists dont fight in UFC and such. They tried and all got knocked out. ANYONE can fight in MMA and represent any style they wish. If you traditionaly train just one art you cant keep up with the current level of the compeitiors in MMA and they mix many styles together.

In the famous words of bruce lee dont wrestler a westler or box a boxer.

Also i think there is a load of art envolved in grappling and striking just because you dont hold some silly stance doesnt mean its not art. Everyone does what they do differntly and their body is the canvas there is a reason everyone looks they way they look and a reason behind how you fight in your training. Plus muay thai made my body hard as a rock and im as ripped as bruce lee from my methods of training and when i fight its art because every strike i throw is the journey of my training ive been on in the las 2 years in Asia. and the progress of fitness since the day i left canada and lost over 50 pounds.

That is true art not holding some stance like a million other people who did the exact same stance, That kinds of like taking a picture of a painting.....

[Fei Hung]

No your wrong , Shaolin would have nothing to contribute for its fists or kicks. They can take kicks from muay thai and punching from wbc boxing. Both of which are worlds ahead of Shaolin. Most people who do shaolin gong fu are just weekend warriors and do stuff when they have time. The nature of MMA and Muay Thai is sport comptition which will always push to make them and the art better at fighting as new contendors step up to the plate.

The only thing Shaolin could contribute would be some stretching exercises. Maybe some would benefit from Chan buddishm meditation which at this point usally has nothing to do with Shaolin anymore. I learned some and i used to use it at one point now i do not. But was enjoyable for some time.

[doc]

I think alot of what you posted is bullshit, but a lot is accurate.

I just wanted to quote that Arhat. I don't know why. I just wanted to.

So, umm, accurate.

[arhat]

listen. you're ignorant. And apparently dense. About a lot of things.

for one, they've ALREADY started learning from Shaolin. Second, I'm agreeing with you for the most part as far as why MMAs dominate things like UFC now- but what I'm trying to tell you is that now more and more TMs are training for it. You will see more and more guys come up through the ranks that have been touched or flavored by TMs. I mean it is there already, because BJJ is a TM, for all intensive purposes.

Why I say you're ignorant is it appears from your posts here you just scratched the surface of Shaolin, whatever you might think, it's obvious. More TMs are coming into the ring sports to supplement what is there, and I'm sure more are on the way. Now it's a focus. A lot of TM players got a wakeup call. People are starting to train the way they need to train to compete, and some are based in Shaolin even now. MT is great, but it's already embedded in MMAs, and the techs are very different from Shaolin. We've had groups of MT fighters come through and I trained it a little while as well before I took up Shaolin. I'll take Shaolin, thanks. Besides, what Doc was trying to tell you is that shaolin can offer a lot beyond just putting your fistinto someone's face with technique. But I love the MT pad work and baseball bat like kicks. Because we usually have way better nutrition from early, the westerner can use MT to achieve basic power quickly and get respect from the originators, and Shaolin too. MT is great because it is distilled. Shaolin, to quote Borat, ehhh...not so much. I also agree with you about the stretching. And I would add chi kung for the kind of muscle/tendon it builds and helps maintain. Stretching concepts alone would be a tremendous benefit to MMA fighters, because it is actually a good way of manifesting power. Meditation allows for no mind and that can be good or bad depending. A lot of western boxers I know who are getting on in years are going in for surgeries. Probably they could pick up a few things too.

Again you're right, most people who are into Shaolin are weekend warriors, even the ones who actually get to China and spend time there. Most people who are into MAs the world over are weekend warriors, so get a grip. The days of mano e mano are basically gone, except for in a few very avoidable situations in real life and rings.

The only MMA fighters, so to speak, I give major props to are the ones who train and incorporate gun drills and know to keep their shit in the ring. Every one else is still in la la land.

No your wrong , Shaolin would have nothing to contribute for its fists or kicks. They can take kicks from muay thai and punching from wbc boxing. Both of which are worlds ahead of Shaolin. Most people who do shaolin gong fu are just weekend warriors and do stuff when they have time. The nature of MMA and Muay Thai is sport comptition which will always push to make them and the art better at fighting as new contendors step up to the plate.

The only thing Shaolin could contribute would be some stretching exercises. Maybe some would benefit from Chan buddishm meditation which at this point usally has nothing to do with Shaolin anymore. I learned some and i used to use it at one point now i do not. But was enjoyable for some time.

[doc]

listen. you're ignorant. And apparently dense. About a lot of things.

I just wanted to quote that too Arhat. I don't know why. I just wanted to.

LOL...

[arhat]

you know the more I think about it, and the more I watch MMA matches like what are in UFC- I really look forward to more Shaolin contributions to creep into the game as the years go on.

Like striking without all the reloading, more effective usage of kicks like fotutui and qiandantui...powerful sprawls from solid and dynamic stance training, that kind of stuff.

[kunoichi2003]

A lot of the ufc fights that I have seen, seem rather slow paced. Where as the chinese martial arts that I have seen, seem to be focused on speed. I just wonder if they have knock out power behind those fast strikes, If they did then I definatly think that they would have a chance against a ufc fighter. Are throws alowed in the ufc? I haven't seen any, but I have seen a lot of times when it looks like it would be really easy to slip in and execute a throw. I know the rules in ufc are in place for safety reasons, but I think it limits what a traditional martial artist can do. A lot of tma are trained in small joint locks (which I belive are not alowed and I can see why). So I really don't think it is fair for people to say that a tma'ist is no match for a ufc fighter, because they are trained differently, and for differnt situations. Personally I would rather train for real life, than to prove that my ma can beat ufc fighters.


kunoichi

[arhat]

Kunoichi- I reccommend watching some UFC matches.

[Rob_Hollett]

I love these kinds of threads...this one reminds me of the Star Wars vs Star Trek arguments....

Just remember it's the not the arrow it's the Indian

[doc]

I love these kinds of threads...this one reminds me of the Star Wars vs Star Trek arguments....

Start a new thread. I think that one would be a little easier to follow. This Buddhism stuff is wearing me out.

[Uwe]

Start a new thread. I think that one would be a little easier to follow. This Buddhism stuff is wearing me out.

Second the motion.


Uwe

[LeiYunFat]

Hey, if you get into spirituality of Trek and Wars, you're going to get the same problem, lol

Spock=Jesus=Yoda?

Whoaaaaaa

[Rob_Hollett]

oh, i just find them humorous is all...mainly because of the extremes people are willing to go to for a hypothetical argument.

Like the Bruce Lee vs Jackie Chan arguments years ago. But I am especially amused with things that are ficticous like the SW vs ST stuff, that's a riot.