Americans!

[dogchow108]

well right, and you know i can go on but i guess people got the idea.



wow im being agreed with...not....used...to this...

[doc]

Don't get too used to it. We will get back to you.

But now, since everyone is planning on Noble's crucifixion, I think I'll jump on the pile too.

People just don't hate. It's always a cause.

Well, I guess you didn't grow up when I did. In New York City.

Come to think of it, a lot of you guys didn' t grow up when I did...

Over the past century, in the US, there has been a tremendous amount of hatred between races, predominantly white and black. Indians had their share back in the 1800's; the Chinese had theirs in the early 1900's. Today, if you walk the streets of NY, well, especially Brooklyn, you'll find the Italians hating the blacks. The Hasidic Jews hating the Italians. The blacks hating the Puerto Ricans. The Puerto Ricans hating the Muslims. The Muslims, well, you get the point.

Oh, and the Russian mafia just kicks everyone's and anyone's ass.

And for what?

Simple hatred. We grew up with it. My mother's husband was a NYC cop. I heard it through part of my teenage years. The hatred.

But I never seemed to hear an appropriate reason for it. It was just there.

Over the years, I've come to realize, that the more educated an individual was, the more likely he was to use his sense of rational thought to overcome his emotions. (Now boys and girls, what famous Shakespeare play made that concept famous?) You see it all the time. Just watch your television.

The Israeli's respond to a terrorist act, and you see the Palestinian's all marching down a street, shooting guns, crying, yelling all sorts of threats, throwing rocks, ranting and raving. Hundreds to thousands of them.

Don't these people have jobs? God, they remind me of the French sometimes.

Let's look at the same situation in Israel. What you see is different. Professionals cleaning up body parts. People going about their business. Calm, cool, collected. Very responsible.

Rational thought versus irrational control by emotions.

But the one thing I know is that it all is for a reason, and that it 99% of the times is a last, desperate act of resistance against a more powerful enemy.

Yes. I guess if I had to sit through twelve years of Norwegian history classes, and listen to how the Germans over ran my country, I'd feel that way too. But, it's more complicated than that.

Life is never that simple.

And then, sometimes it is.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by doc
But now, since everyone is planning on Noble's crucifixion, I think I'll jump on the pile too.

Wait a minute. Crucifixion is not necessary. Noble is as free as any of us to express his opinion. I might not agree with it but I ain't gonna put him down for holding it.

Mark

[dogchow108]

ok, fine we wont actually crucify......


boiling tar, anyone?

[dogchow108]

no really, though, i just get angry when people who dont really seem to know whats going on get on a high-horse by telling others that. i guess i could have been less harsh in my post, but hey sometimes it just seems like people need a bitching.

[juszczec]

dogchow108

Your post is your own business. If Noble takes offense, that's between you two.

If anyone disagrees with Noble, then they can say so. I just don't want this to turn into something where a bunch of people pile on someone with an unpopular opinion. That's what Doc's calling it a crucifixion made me think of.

Mark

[dogchow108]

i disagree.

i think that posting opinions on here, the internet, is a blatant sign that we wish to make our opinions the business of others.

other than that, its ok. i understand that people always want to fight for the underdog and they have a right to. i just think that Noble getting on here and ranting about warhungry americans the way he did was offensive. and so, i said my opinion. again, the guy deserves whatever feedback he gets because by posting his opinion, he leaves himself vulnerable to feedback just as we all do.

if you are worried about shaolinwolf-style bashfests, hopefully the people who post here will have the sense to just stop posting on threads that get them. so far this place has done a good job avoiding these.

[daodejing]

A different American perspective.

Lyrics by Ani Difranco

Us people, we're just poems. We're ninety percent metaphor, with a leanness of meaning approaching hyperdistilation. And once upon a time we were moonshine. Rushing down the throat of a girraffe, yes rushing down the long hall despite what the PA announcment says,
yes rushing down the long hall in the building so tall, that it will always be there, as part of a pair.
There on the bow of Noah's ark, the most prestigious couple just kickin back parked
against a perfectly blue sky on a morning beatific in its indian summer breeze
on the day that america fell to its knees, after strutting around for a century, without saying thank you, or please.

And the shock was subsonic, and the smoke was deafening, between the setup and the punchline. Because we were all on time, for work that day. We all boarded that plane for it to fly, and then when the fires were raging we all climbed up onto the windowsill and then we all held hands and jumped into the sky. And every burrough looked up when we heard the first blast, and every dumb action movie was summarily surpassed, and the exodus uptown by foot and motorcar......... looked more like war than anything I've seen so far....... so far...... so far... So fierce, an ingenious, a poetic spectre so far gone that every jackasss newscaster was struck dumb and stumbling over "oh my goddd" and "this is unbeleivable" and on an on, and I'll tell you what. While we're at it, you can keep the pentagon. You can keep the propaganda. You can keep each and every TV that's been trying to convince me, to participate in some prep school punk's plan to perpetuate retribution. Perpetuate retribution. Even as the blue toxic smoke of our lesson in retribution is still hanging in the air, and theres ash on our shoes. And theres ash, in our hair. And theres a fine silt on every mantle from hell's kitchen to brooklyn, and the streets are full of stories some twists and near misses. And soon every open bar is crammed to the rafters with tails of narrowly averted disasters. And the whiskey is flowing, like never before. As all over the country folks just shake their heads, and pour.

So here's a toast to all the folks who live in palestine, afghanistan, iraq, el salvador. Here's a toast to all the folks living on the pine ridge reservation beneath the the stone cold gaze of mount rushmore. Here's a toast to all those nurses and doctors, who daily provide woman with a choice. Who stand down a threat the size of oklahoma city, just to listen to a young woman's voice. Here's a toast to all those on deathrow right now, awaiting the executioner's guillotine. Who are shackled there with dread and can only escape into their head's to find peace, in the form, of a dream. Peace, in the form, of a dream. Peace, in the form, of a dream. Cause take away our playstations, and we are a third world nation under the thumb of some blue blood royal son who stole the oval office and that phony election. I mean, it don't take a weatherman to look around and see the weather, Jeb said he'd deliver florida folks and boy did he ever. And we hold these truths to be self-evident, number one George W Bush is not president. Number two, america is not a true democracy. And number three, the media, is not fooling me. Cause I, I'm a poem, heating hyperdistillation. And I've got no room, for a lie, so verbose. Yes I'm looking out over my whole human family, and I'm raising my glass in a toast. Here's to our last drink of fossil fuels.
............................................
Give back the night, its distant whistle. Give the darkness back its soul. Give the big oil companies the finger finally, and relearn how to rock and roll. Yes the lessons are all around us, and the truth is waiting there, its time to pick through the rubble, clean the streets, and clear the air. Get our government to pull its dick out of the sand of someone else's desert, put it back in its pants. Quit the hypocritical chants, of "freedom forever", cause when one lone phone rang in two thousand and one at ten after nine on nine one one, which was the number we all called when that lone phone rang right off the wall. Right off our desk and down the long hall, down the long stairs in the building so tall, that the whole world turned, just to watch it fall.

And while we're at it, remember the first time around? The bomb, the ryder truck, the parking garage, the princess that didn't even feel the pea? Remember joking around at our apartment on avenue D? Can you imagine how many paper coffee cups would have to change their design following a fantastical reversal of the new york skyline? It was a joke, at the time. And that was just a few years ago, so let the record show, that the FBI was all over that case. That the plot was obvious and in everybodies face, and scoping that scene religiously the CIA, or is it KGB? Committing countless crimes against humanity with this kind of eventuality as its excuse for abuse, after extensive abuse, and they didn't have a clue. Look, another window, to see through. Way up here, on the hundred and fourth floor, look, another key another door. Ten percent literal, ninety percent metaphor. Three thousand some poems, disguised as people, on an almost too perfect day, MUST be more than poems in some asshole's passion play. So now it's your job, and it's my job, to make it that way. To make sure they didn't die in vain. Shusssshhhhhhh baby listen, here the train?

Lyrics by Ani Difranco

[daodejing]

I just thought I'd share that. Consider the entire last post to be quoted for copyright purposes. Not everyone is here to crucify Noble, and we're not all "warhungry americans".

May all of you know peace in your hearts, if not in your country.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by daodejing
I just thought I'd share that. Consider the entire last post to be quoted for copyright purposes. Not everyone is here to crucify Noble, and we're not all "warhungry americans".

May all of you know peace in your hearts, if not in your country.

So what does Ani want us to do?

Nothing? Ok, but that will invite more attacks.

Stop using oil? Ok, I'll turn in my keys if you turn in yours.

Withdraw support from Israel? Sure, if we want to see genocide on a scale that would make Hitler envious.

Mark

[daodejing]

Live your life as best you can. Love yourself and thus love all things. Don't let your emotions rule your actions. Don't be a slave to desire. Don't be wasteful. By all means, if you can, turn in your carkeys. Find and know God in whatever context or meaning you perceive him to be. Respect everything around you, living and otherwise. Understand that hatred is derived from pain, and that desire is the root of suffering. Do your best to live without causing other to suffer. When you have no choice but to kill, do so without anger, and respect both the fallen and the survivor. When the battle is one do not rejoice, act as you would at a funeral rite.

In short, be devoid of desire and full of love.

[daodejing]

If we could all do that, I think ani would be happy. I know I would, but then I'm a pretty happy guy allready.

May we all know peace within our hearts, if not in our communities.

[doc]

If anyone disagrees with Noble, then they can say so. I just don't want this to turn into something where a bunch of people pile on someone with an unpopular opinion. That's what Doc's calling it a crucifixion made me think of.

Can you spell S-A-R-C-A-S-M?

Now, that we've got that straight, how big is Noble exactly? I'm heading to Home Depot to get some roofing cement.

It WILL work just as well as the tar.

Oh, and nobody knows Shakespeare here?

[doc]

I just found out some stuff about this Ani babe.

Interesting. Dao, did you type that whole thing all by yourself? Just wondering.

Here's something from a letter that Ani wrote, to Ms magazine, that, for some reason, did an article on her:

"So I'm poring through the 25th anniversary issue of Ms. (on some airplane going somewhere in the amorphous blur that amounts to my life) and I'm finding it endlessly enlightening and stimulating as always, when, whaddaya know, I come across a little picture of little me. I was flattered to be included in that issue's "21 feminists for the 21st century" thingybob. I think ya'll are runnin the most bold and babe-olishious magazine around, after all....

Thanks for including me, Ms., really. But just promise me one thing; if I drop dead tomorrow, tell me my grave stone won't read:

ani d.
CEO.

Please let it read:

songwriter
musicmaker
storyteller
freak."

Well all righty now. Most definitely a sage for our times.

But, Ani's from Buffalo New York. We'll let it slide.

[daodejing]

Doc, there's alot of shakespearian plays where people get overwhelmed by emotion and do silly things. Like A Midsummer Night's Dream for example. Then there's Macbeth, and Othello the Moor of Venice, fine example of how greed and ambition (through the Macbeth's, and Iago, then theres the example of Othello's jealousy) can be the downfall of not only one man but everyone around them. Hamlet too is a fine example of all the suffering which can come as a result of inability to reason while overwhelmed by pathos. If hamlet could have strapped on a pipe bomb surrounded by nails and cornered claudius he would've done so. Pain can drive one mad, we see the example in impovershed occupied countries all the time.

And yes Doc, she is from buffalo, but it's still good to have a verbose new yorker's opinion on the whole matter when people were talking about other people not knowing what its like to lose friends to terrorism or see it in front of you face (so she's an upstate girl, oh well). And yes doc I typed that all by myself while pausing and playing the song to make sure I got it all right. It's an amazing piece of poetry and I felt it needed to be shared. Especially with the way this discussion was going.