fareheit 9/11 review - Roger Ebert

[zachsan]

michael moore is a bigger celebrity than most!! bada-bing!!!

[lester1/2jr]

ruben studdard is a neoconservitive porn star then

[zachsan]

so you've seen Big Bertha Does Afghanistan too?

[meattosser]

Mortal: "Are you saying it is a fifty-fifty split? The media is mostly liberal. I don't think you have a leg to stand on here."

Mortal, Zachsan has just as much leg to stand on as you do. Since when were you bringing about irrefutable evidence to the table on this subject? Besides, bringing about "Hollywood" is a broad generalization, especially towards the focus of this thread, which was not in Hollywood. Moore grew up in Flint, Michigan. He doesn't exactly love hollywood. Unfortunately, too many people quickly like to generalize before they research actual facts. So-called "Hollywood" people are conservative too, it just depends who it is. Ron Silver, who has done quite a few amount of films, is a pretty conservative guy.

As for the media bias subject, well, look at it this way. Today, like it or not, many of our most popular news organizations, (Fox news, CNN, etc...) are corporate owned. To me, that's just bad news. News should always be independent. Otherwise, how will you know these people are giving fair, objective reporting? The moment a news company is bought off by a corporation, it's gonna have to suck up to whatever the corporation wants. So even though they'll be able to say a few things here and there, when **** hits the fan, they won't be allowed to dig deep into corporate crime, or anything else that bothers their superiors. More often that not, corporations are pro-neo conservative, since it benefits them more. Now put 2 and 2 together. If most American news is now corporate owned, and corporations are pro far-right, then what is most of the media going to lean towards? I believe that there are still a few independant news organizations in this country but they're few and far between.

So don't bag on Zachsan just because you don't agree with his opinion; he has just as much voice in this as you or I do.

Anyway, stay strong and keep an open mind.

[zachsan]

let me just say for the record that this message board member does not necessarily endorse the views stated by those other message board members who happen to be sticking up for him. haha, alright anyway...

you make a lot of good theoretical points meat about corporations and the media and all that, but how much evidence is there of corporations actually messing with the news that we get? and a lot of those independent papers and radio stations that you're referring to come into being for the precise reasons that you've mentioned, and therefore, they kind of start out with an everything-is-a-lie-and-only-we-know-the-truth kind of attitude which can be detrimental to actual objective news reporting.

[lester1/2jr]

I really believe you are paranoid if you don't believe the media. Seriously, forget rage against the machine or whatever. there's no big conspiracy to keep the truth from the people. The best seller list is lousy with liberal exposes "bush did this" "halliburton did that". All trying to capitalize on our fear of not getting EVERY LAST BIT of info. the right wing shell game is no worse. Sean Hannity has a team of researchers that woul make Darwin ( who married his cousin and had a bunch of retarded offspring) jealous. and his arguements are often about as impressive as a lawyer, used car slaesman, or politician or some other silver tongued asshole. We are humans. No one is WINNING this political thing. Our goal is what is known as anarchy. I mean this in the sense of doing our thing and going to bed and not worrying about outside ****. This is achievable. The current threat to this is militant Islam. Don't crucify Bush for his attempt to stop it. There is alot we don't know about how to do this.

[doc]

Today, like it or not, many of our most popular news organizations, (Fox news, CNN, etc...) are corporate owned. To me, that's just bad news. News should always be independent.

If a corporation is not going to own and run a news organization, who will? A private individual?

I'm watching CNN here in Thailand. Nothing but Al Sadr being a hero for offering peace, increasing gas prices, how Bush is indirectly responsible for gas prices, Kerry planning on fixing the world now with respect to the increasing gas prices....

What a bent.

[meattosser]

Ahh, good, we have a good strong debate going here. Okay, let's see, let me respond to a few of these things...

Zachsan: "...and a lot of those independent papers and radio stations that you're referring to come into being for the precise reasons that you've mentioned, and therefore, they kind of start out with an everything-is-a-lie-and-only-we-know-the-truth kind of attitude which can be detrimental to actual objective news reporting."

Nice reply Zachsan, you made a valid point. It's true, after some people see the corruption of these things, sometimes they themselves get extremely pessimistic and cynical over everything, and start getting the "everything-is-a-lie" mentality. I'm aware of this, and I try not to get too caught up in those groups, as doing that will not do anyone any good. However, there ARE some that are still very optimistic of changing things for the better, and I believe that one must stay positive if one really wants to change things.

Zachsan: "...but how much evidence is there of corporations actually messing with the news that we get?"


Hmm, actually I think I have quite a few documents and literature that point out specific sources, (both mainstream and otherwise) pointing out various occasions of sleazy corporate tactics.... matter of fact, I should start looking for them, heh, I haven't been catching up on my deep researching and reading lately. I'll try to find some of that stuff and post it. As soon as I get some more time off from work, heh heh.

Lester1/2jr: "I really believe you are paranoid if you don't believe the media..."
"...The current threat to this is militant Islam. Don't crucify Bush for his attempt to stop it. There is alot we don't know about how to do this."

Exactly. There IS a lot we don't know about how to do this. And that's the way this administration wants to keep it. It benefits them to keep us out of the loop, not us. But this is why you shouldn't be too quick to believe everything that comes out of TV news. You have to be willing to see things from several points of view, then compare them if possible, and see how each one's claims stack up. I harshly criticize Bush and his cronies (Karl Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney) for several reasons. He had made MANY statements and claims that he said he would do, back in 2000; but once he was "elected" (and I place that word in quotes becuase he won under questionable circumstances), he became someone completely different. I actually believed in him when he first came to office, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt; but after a while, the lies just came coming, and coming, and coming. It just got ridiculous after a while. Almost laughable. The current threat IS militant Islam, but these things don't just pop out of the blue. Research the past 50 years of American/British foreign policy, and you'll realize that both governments became major catalysts for promoting the rise of modern Islamic extremism. Terrorism arises from desperate times or situtations. Also, perhaps you may think I'm paranoid for stating things about ties between corporate contracts and the military industrial complex, but war profiteering is very real. I don't look at these things as some "Evil conspiracy", I look at it as a bad situation that needs to be resolved, the sooner the better. Even president Eisenhower himself, in one of his speeches back in the '50's, had warned the American public of the danger of our own military industrial complex. Hmm, I forgot the exact quote, I'll go look for it so I can post on here, though.

Anyway, as always, stay strong, keep practicing gongfu, and keep an open mind.

(P.S. Doc, when you're in Thailand, do you practice Thai Boxing? Or do you just go there to relax?)

[zachsan]

"Exactly. There IS a lot we don't know about how to do this. And that's the way this administration wants to keep it. It benefits them to keep us out of the loop, not us."

what loop? it's a full-scale war on terrorism. this kind of thing has never been done before. it's not like they've got the top-secret blueprints for this thing.

[doc]

Thai boxing. Thai relaxation. Thai boxing. Thai honeys. More Thai boxing.

One more special Thai honey. Gotta love them.

[lester1/2jr]

meattosser- interesting that you say "catalyst". That implies that there is something else that is "the problem" and the US and britain are or were helping it along. I'm not disagreeing with that but don't you think that says something? We didn't give these people their weird ideologies. Ideologies they share with the dictators whom they often claim to despise. So even accepting the "catylst" premise, it puts much more of the blame on militant and even "regular" muslims. Do you think arabs are worried about what the "american street" thinks of them?

[meattosser]

lester1/2jr: "...Ideologies they share with the dictators whom they often claim to despise. So even accepting the "catylst" premise, it puts much more of the blame on militant and even "regular" muslims. Do you think arabs are worried about what the "american street" thinks of them?"

I was being 'nice' when I used the word Catalyst. Also, dictators and islamic extremists don't get along. They hate each other's guts. They DON'T share the same ideology. It's like Benito Mussolini back in the early days of World War 2; remember the Sicilian Mafia? They were a threat to his power. A totalitarian dictator, (like Stalin, Augosto Pinochet, Mussolini or Saddam) is usually extremely vain. They want absolute power. Like an Emperor. They answer to no one but themselves. Many Al-Quaeda affiliates considered Saddam an enemy just like United States. When Mussolini took hold of power, he used his military power to crush the Mafia in his own country. Why? He didn't trust them. He knew they had their own agenda, and if they didn't fall in line with him, they had to go, which they did. Saddam saw islamic terrorists the same way Mussolini saw the mafia back in the WW2. For one thing, he preffered secular control, not religious fanatics. That's why there were no major terrorists camps in Iraq for all these years. He wanted power for HIMSELF and ONLY HIMSELF. No one else. He was always paranoid of people even in his own cabinet betraying him. They're two different mentalities, and they don't get along.
Hmm, and do I think arabs are worried about what the "American Street" thinks of them? Well, probably not. Unlike us, most Arabs living in the Middle East are going through much more brutal situtations and don't have the luxury of debating and commenting on these things. They're just trying to survive. Many of them feel as if the west doesn't give a **** about them. The Palestinean people, for example, are struggling just to be heard. The Arabs don't have to be worried of what the "American Street" thinks of them, they're the ones being invaded, they're the ones who have been (and still are being) bombed, day after day. Many of them believe that nobody gives a flying **** about their lives anymore, especially the ones who personally lost friends, brothers, parents, through direct bombings or otherwise. These people have become extremely desperate. Which is one of the major reasons why terrorism starts to rise. It rises out of hatred, pain, and desparation. For every action, there's a reaction. And although I DO agree with you, when you said that US/British governments were not SOLELY responsible for the extremism, they added 'fuel to the fire', so to speak. Lots of fuel.... lots and lots of fuel. Even after finding out that the mujihadeen were filled with psychopaths and killers, the CIA went ahead and funded, trained, and armed them, to be more ready to organize than ever. Hell, they basically taught Osama Bin Laden and his cronies the best tricks in the book. I'm sure there were a few CIA agents against this, but their voices were probably just ignored. Then they act surprised when the same criminals they trained end up going against them. Yet our Prez is basically 'in bed' with the Saudi Royal Families. The Saudi Princes and Sheiks are corrupt as ****, and they still promote islamic terrorism. With all the power that the US/British govt's held, they could have made great strides, years ago, in reform and independence for all these now decimated countries. Alas, it got in the way of big business. And we can't have THAT can we? Lol. I guess big business is always more important than freedom and democracy. That's just one reason so many other countries believe the "War on Terror" is a joke. Credibility is down the toilet. Gotta stay positive though, as hopefully in the near future we can learn a little more from our mistakes, and help build a more stable, free and independent Middle Eastern region.

(P.S. Ha, awesome Doc, what takes priority though? Thai loving? Or Thai Boxing? Or is some sort of universal harmony and balance of both, such as the Yin/Yang theory? Heh heh.)

[doc]

You're on to something MT. Definite harmony here.

[lester1/2jr]

Arab extremists and arab dictators are not enemies. They share the same enemy: Israel and the USA (democracy). and many involved in terror aren't desperate at all. Osmoma Bin Laden is a multi billionaire. Many al queda have jobs and educations. The money flowing in to terrorist organizations from narco trafficking and muslim charities allow them to fund suicide bombings. And on that note, considering the saudis have made trillions, yes trillions, of dollars over the years, don't you think it's a little strange that their people are sufffering? Yassir Arafat has 300 Billion in his bank account which his wife who lives in Paris regualrly dips into for million dollar shoppin sprees. The same arafat who blames the US and Israel for the misery of "his" people. The same arafat who WALKED AWAY from Camp David after being offered his own state. The US/ west may be inept and have made mistakes due to our own interests, but nothing on the level of the culture of car bombings and honor killings. and as far as training Osama, that's true. we were helping afghanistan, a soveriegn country, defend itself against a massive foreign power, the communist dictatorship of Russia. and again, we didn't teach them to make their women cover themselves from head to toe in all black in the 100 degree heat and basically worship death over life.

[lester1/2jr]

from "the nation"

Rubber tapper, 63, beheaded in South

Published on May 30, 2004


The restive South took a turn for the worse yesterday as suspected Muslim militants decapitated a rubber-tapper and threatened to carry out more killings if security forces continued to arrest "innocent Muslims".

Sieng Padkaew, 63, a resident of Narathiwat's Sungai Padi district, was beheaded by an unknown number of assailants on his rubber plantation about two kilometres from his house in tambon Toh Daeng yesterday morning before dawn.

A typed note saying, "If you arrest innocent Malay, we will kill innocent Thai Buddhist", was left on Sieng's body, while his severed head was placed about 60 metres away on a nearby dirt road - apparently so people passing would see it.

Eyewitnesses said Somsri, Sieng's wife, begged hysterically for her husband's head to be sewn back on. They said the two were born in the area, had lived there all their lives, did not have any problems with anybody, and she had no idea why her husband was attacked.

A fellow villager, Maansaram Dor-mae, discovered the headless body at about 6am and ran frantically to the closest police station to report the grisly find.

Commissioner of the Ninth Police Region, Maj-General Manote Kraiwong, and his deputy Maj-General Thani Thawidsri arrived at tambon Toh Daeng by helicopter to get a first-hand look at Sieng's body.

Manote expressed concern the beheading would create more racial tension between local Buddhists and the ethnic-Malay Muslims who make up about 80 per cent of the local residents.

In a related development, a Buddhist couple in nearby Rangae district were attacked by four machete-wielding men but survived the incident after the husband put up a fight.

Locals rushed Fook Pruek-sapong, a former civil-defence volunteer, and his wife to hospital. Fook suffered cuts on his back, shoulder and wrist, while his wife - whose name was not released - was beaten by the attackers.

Meanwhile, a policeman was shot dead in nearby Yala's Bannang Sata district. Sergeant Charnarong Saengkrajang was killed while conducting a patrol in the area. He died shortly after being taken to hospital.

The southernmost provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat, plus part of Songkhla, have witnessed a number of violent attacks since the beginning of the year that have resulted in the deaths of nearly 200 people. These include the 108 knife-wielding insurgents shot on April 28 - more than 30 of them in Pattani's Krue Se Mosque - by security forces a series of almost suicidal attacks on police outposts.

Thai security officers blame the unrest on a new breed of militants who they say have begun to adopt a more radical approach and non-conventional tactics in their fight against state agencies.

Officials have also said local residents claim hundreds of Muslims in the region have gone missing over the past five months amid an all-out crackdown by the security agencies looking to get to the bottom of the violence.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra yesterday reiterated in a radio speech that planned talks with a rebel leader are not going to be "a negotiation but more a discussion to help the southerners".

The army commander for the south is expected to meet with the leader of Bersatu, an umbrella organisation of southern separatist groups, at a location and date yet to be set.

"I have asked the military to hold talks with the various groups in the [separatist] movement in the south as we want to get information from people who claim they know the source of the problems. But they have to truly work for the people and not just themselves," Thaksin said.

http://nationmultimedia.com/page.news.php3?clid=1&id=114562&usrsess=1