Thoughts on war

[Lipster]

I doubt it will work...somehow I don't think pig lard will solve this...


Chow, I'm Jewish. An animal that does not ruminate as well as have split hooves is unkosher, as are carnivorous birds and fish that don't have fins and scales. Now everyone seems to have the idea that the pig is considered impure by the Jews as it is with the Muslims, whereas actually it's simply considered unkosher. Because of its behaviour it's considered more 'unclean' then most other animals - which has no technical bearing on its kosher status - and therefore used as the general example of (physical or spiritual) uncleanliness. Which is why people are confused and think we consider the pig a major bozo no-no.

And you are not allowed as a jew to slaughter unkosher animals, which is why the Israeli gov't wont do the pig blood thing.

Hmmm, not entirely accurate. The killing or slaughter of a non-kosher animal is fine. Always has been, and so I still don't see why all this is necessary. Trading in non-kosher food/consumables is a problem, but that ain't the case here. So hmmm.

Thanks anyway, peace...

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by Lipster
It's supposed to represent the epitome of 'uncleanliness' because of its characteristics,

that is mainly what i was responding to. this is the reason a lot of people think Jews dont eat pork- it is simply incorrect. and i agree with your last post, its simply a matter of unkosher eating, but im pretty sure that you also can't slaughter the pig in the first place. but then i dont really know too many details about the religions as i tend to kind of ignore much of it in the first place...i dunno i'll ask the rabbi here- now that its mentioned i'm interested in knowing.

[dogchow108]

atcually, then if slaughtering a pig is fine by Jewish law...why not do the anti-terror thing just to try it out? i kinda tend to think also that it wont really stop people because the main goal in doing the terrorist act in the first place is for money, so you would undoubtably have a case where you get the people in charce starting to make loopholes and stuff like that as to why they can still do the act and be spiritually ..i dunno...get a free pass.

[Lipster]

Well there is a principle that anything (most things), food or otherwise, that is prohibited for personal use is also disallowed from bringing less-direct benefit to whom it's forbidden to, either through sale or alternative usage. Exceptionally however, incorrectly slaughtered or non-kosher carcasses [which come to the same thing] are permitted to derive benefit from. Otherwise you'd never see Jews wearing leather shoes or those fur hats - you think they ritually slaughter every animal that produces them?

actually, then if slaughtering a pig is fine by Jewish law...why not do the anti-terror thing just to try it out?

Well from what I understand the article seems to be saying they will. Where do you get the idea that the government isn't sanctioning it? I was just wondering why all the religious sanctioning was necessary...


And bang on with your last bit. Of course what's gonna happen is that as soon as they put them up, all that will change is that pig entrails won't be a big no-no anymore. Not very hard to design loopholes...

[doc]

To clarify the 72 virgin bit. From The Guardian, January 12, 2002

In August, 2001, the American television channel CBS aired an interview with a Hamas activist Muhammad Abu Wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in Israel. Abu Wardeh was quoted as saying: "I described to him how God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness." Wardeh was in fact shortchanging his recruits since the rewards in Paradise for martyrs was 72 virgins. But I am running ahead of things .

Since September 11, news stories have repeated the story of suicide bombers and their heavenly rewards, and equally Muslim scholars and Western apologists of Islam have repeated that suicide is forbidden in Islam. Suicide (qatlu nafsi-hi) is not referred to in the Koran but is indeed forbidden in the Traditions (Hadith in Arabic), which are the collected sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet and traced back to him through a series of putatively trustworthy witnesses. They include what was done in his presence that he did not forbid, and even the authoritative sayings and doings of his companions.

But the Hamas spokesman correctly uses the word martyr (shahid) and not suicide bomber, since those who blow themselves up almost daily in Israel and those who died on September 11 were dying in the noblest of all causes, Jihad, which is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined for the purpose of advancing Islam. While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged: "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'." [Sahih Muslim, chapters 781, 782, The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom.]

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

[doc]

Martin has got some pretty good insight into all of this:

My name is Martin M. Bodek and my web site is http://www.martinbodek.com/. I have 72 Questions on the 72 Virgins that Muslims are rewarded with in heaven if they die in holy war. Could you please answer these questions for me?

Sincerely,
Martin M. Bodek

(P.S. These questions are rated "R" for highly suggestive language and evocative imagery)

1) What if the bomber wants girls with more experience?
2) What if one virgin is no good in bed? Does she get replaced or is he stuck with 71?
3) If he's gay, does he get male virgins?
4) What if he's celibate? What does he get?
5) What if he hasn't reached puberty yet? Does he get 72 Xboxes till he comes of age?
6) If he's bi, does he get 36 of each?
7) If he blows himself up while building the bomb, does he still get credit?
8) What do you call a relationship with 72 women, a menage-a-soixante-deux?
9) Are they like 72 wives or 1 wife and 71 concubines?
10) What if he's ugly or smells bad and the virgins don't want anything to do with him?
11) Is there viagra in paradise? Ya know, just in case?
12) Is there an age of consent?
13) When they're deflowered, do they get replaced by new virgins or are they "born again"?
14) Do they become his common-law wives eventually?
15) If he has a tryst with a 73rd virgin, do the others consider it cheating?
16) Do the virgins have a union? If so, can they strike if they're not satisfied?
17) Is there a temp agency that replaces virgins if they call in sick?
18) What if the bomber's into animals? Does he get accommodated?
19) Why 72? Is 71 too few? Is 73 too many?
20) If it was a female bomber, how do the male virgins prove their virginity?
21) What happens when paradise runs out of virgins?
22) Can a bomber make reservations on specific virgins before he blows himself up?
23) If there are no virgins available, is he put on a waiting list?
24) If he's a catholic priest, does he get 72 little boys?
25) Would you call a female bomber a bombshell?
26) Would you call a child bomber a bombino?
27) Is it not 73 out of respect for Barry Bond's home run record?
28) If the bomber previously dated one of the virgins, does it get awkward?
29) Do they have a bomb squad in paradise just in case one of the charges didn't go off?
30) Did they start using female bombers because they ran out of virgins for the guys?
31) If she's a lesbian, do they "convert" the virgins, or will straight girls suffice her?
32) Does a hermaphrodite bomber get hermaphrodite virgins?
33) If so, are there 72 available?
34) If they run out of virgins, do they get inflatable dolls till they find more?
35) If a bomber finds an infidel in paradise, can he blow him up and get 72 more virgins?
36) Could the Koran have had a typo and it actually provided just one 72 year old virgin?
37) Is Muslim hell being one of the 72 virgins?
38) Instead of 72 guys, would a female bomber settle for 1 man who does dishes and garbage?
39) Do the bombers go broke on Valentine's Day?
40) If he's monogamous, does he pick one of the 72 or does he get a supermodel?
41) What if he doesn't like either gender? Does he just klutz around in paradise?
42) Eternity is long, and eventually he'll grow bored of his 72 women. What happens then?
43) How does he pick the 72 to begin with? Lottery? Beauty pageant? Police lineup?
44) Is he allowed to covet his neighbor's virgins?
45) Do the virgins have agents and/or contracts?
46) If so, can a virgin request to be traded or put on waivers if she's unhappy?
47) What should he say if one of the virgins asks "Does this Burka make me look fat?"
48) If he gives the wrong answer, is he uh, screwed?
49) How is anyone expected to handle a catfight amongst 72 women?
50) Did the 9/11 hijackers who didn't know they were going to die get 72 virgins too?
51) Are scouts employed to find virgin talent?
52) Do the virgins ever retire, or do they remain virgins forever?
53) If they retire, what kind of pension plan do they get?
54) Wouldn't it be interesting if they're virgins because they're ugly?
55) So is it 72 Muslim girls or like 1 virgin from every culture?
56) Wouldn't it be sweet if Lorena Bobbit got hired as one of the virgins?
57) What does Gloria Steinem have to say about all this?
58) When he gets home, does he have to say "How was your day?" to all 72 virgins?
59) Do they have counseling for sexual addiction in paradise?
60) If the virgins start hogging the remote, is he in hell?
61) They must take up an entire theater when they go to the movies, huh?
62) Are there restaurants in paradise that can accommodate a reservation for 73?
63) If a virgin suffers from multiple personalities, is she considered two virgins?
64) Does he get all the virgins at once, or do they have an installment plan?
65) Is the bomber entitled to subsitutes, exchanges, or refunds?
66) What if all the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the bomber together again?
67) Is "not tonight, dear, I have a headache" a valid excuse in paradise?
68) Do the virgins come with a warranty?
69) If so, does paradise replace defective parts and provide on-site service?
70) What do you call a lifetime warranty if you're dead?
71) Do siamese twin bombers get 144 virgins?
72) Who gets to clean up all those nasty sheets?

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by Lipster
Well there is a principle that anything (most things), food or otherwise, that is prohibited for personal use is also disallowed from bringing less-direct benefit to whom it's forbidden to, either through sale or alternative usage. Exceptionally however, incorrectly slaughtered or non-kosher carcasses [which come to the same thing] are permitted to derive benefit from. Otherwise you'd never see Jews wearing leather shoes or those fur hats - you think they ritually slaughter every animal that produces them?




Well from what I understand the article seems to be saying they will. Where do you get the idea that the government isn't sanctioning it? I was just wondering why all the religious sanctioning was necessary...


And bang on with your last bit. Of course what's gonna happen is that as soon as they put them up, all that will change is that pig entrails won't be a big no-no anymore. Not very hard to design loopholes...

Well, lipster, and since ur jewish u'll maybe know who im talking about, but you know the "Dossim" DO wear only certain clothing with certain types of threads in them. although im not sure how exactly the rule for that works.

Also, i dont know i mean the article might be saying someone's talking about them using it but its been thought about for so long that im surprised this is coming up now instead of having been done last year or the summer before that when the stuff was REALLY intense. you'll remember the summer before last was probably the most violent summer in the past decade. why didnt they do that then?

[dogchow108]

You know, even if suicide is illegal under islamic law, the number of homocides in these incidents are much higher than the number of suicides. People can bash fox news all they want but they have it right when they call them homocide bombings. this alone leaves the path clear for a loophole as far as martyrdom vs suicide.

[Lipster]

Well, lipster, and since ur jewish u'll maybe know who im talking about, but you know the "Dossim" DO wear only certain clothing with certain types of threads in them. although im not sure how exactly the rule for that works.

Yeah, well the only thing I think you could be referring to is a single instance of two types of material (wool and linen) which cannot be mixed. And that, for example, one may not obtain benefit from. Other then that I don't know of any prohibitions with regard to certain threads in clothing.

As for the rest, yeah I'm agreeing with you man, I have no clue why they didn't use it last year.

And why they don't just threaten to bury remains with pigs or something like the British did instead of hanging up all this **** is also a question I guess...

[dogchow108]

hahaha. i didnt know the Brits did that. And it worked? hmm, who knows then...

[doc]

I thought the Brits threatened to feed the remains to the pigs, not bury them with them.

Definitely a much greater deterrent, in my mind. To spend eternity as pig ****.

[dogchow108]

heh...yea...but then if you decompose and all your molecules disperse, does that mean you are not tainted by the pig filth anymore?

food for thought...ugh...food...

[dave]

ummm for a start, im a convert to Islam and as Lipster tried to explain from his standpoint (Jewish) - the whole pork thing isnt so clear cut as everyone makes out.

Neither is the 72 virgin things as well as taking Quranic verses out of context without understanding the original arabic, context, preceeding and proceeding verses, and the historical circumstances of revelation as well as many other things.

Nowhere in Quran as far as i have read and understood does it say that if you come near pork then you will not go to heaven. Actually Quran tells us that yes we are meant to avoid it, but if there is no option we are even allowed to eat it so that we can live. It also tells us that we can also eat the meat from chrisitan and jewish peoples (kosher or whatever), and many other things. But when you mix in people being illiterate, uneducated as well as cultural practises masquerading as islamic ones then you can see why some people may think that.

I realise this may have all been done jokingly, but its exactly the kind of thing that has been posted which encourages the extreme factions in the muslim world to spread their hate of the US and other places... which is a sad fact indeed You have no idea how easy it is to print some of the things that are written here and show uneducated people and just say "look - see what these Americans are saying about us and our beliefs" - what do you think will happen?

The fact that there is so much mention of "rag heads" and other things by people, neglecting the fact that many everyday iraqi peoples are sitting at home afraid of not only the US troops (shock and awe tactics), but the different iraqi militias commaded and run by the scum who happen to be on the "governing body" (who by the way to common people there are generally known to be the biggest gangsters around) is something i find rather disturbing.

As far as the 72 virgins thing - this is all from reported traditions that Muhammad was meant to have said not and i repeat not from Quran. But actually there are millions of different ones that have been found out to be forgeries and cant unacceptable Even a cursory look at Islamic history would show that after Muhammad died there were many different factions all competing for power and the formative period of Islamic Law and Theology took place then.

Apart form the fact that Quran itself tells us that it describes "heaven" and "hell" using similitudes as we cant even begin to understand the unseen, there are many other factors involved in this particular saying. Such things as: how then does that relate to women? What do they get? If as Quran says men and women are equal in front of God then how can that possibly be? Is it allegorical or literal? So many things, its not just so simple.

Some of these extreme scholars are telling people who have lost all hope to having a better life these things and they take it hook, line and sinker. Even some of the most modern and so called "moderate" scholars give rulings saying suicide bombings is permissable - yet neglect the fact that there is much evidence in Islamic history and islamic jurispudence to the contrary. There is so much upheavel and problems going on in regards to Islam that it is really very saddening.

I didnt want to make this post long but i can go in to more detail if anyone is really interested? There is a brief article here by an emminent Islamic scholar who currently resides in the US (and is also a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom).

dave

[doc]

Dave, you're correct. It's not in the Kuran. But I never said the 72 virgin thing came out of the Koran. This is what I quoted:

It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687).

The same can be said for the pork issue, an issue whick is also prevalent in Judaism. They were smart back then, no doubt figuring out fairly early that pork, if not cooked well enough, can cause intestinal diseases. Maybe this is why they were 'anti-pork', as opposed to the other theories that are bantered about, one of which I really like (the pig is one of the few animals that shares its mates, they should have come to Las Vegas....)

This stuff is in Islam, it just hasn't been documented in the Kuran. It's documented elsewhere.

[dave]

hey doc i know, no worries - i wasnt meaning you i think it was dogchow or one of the others a few pages back who made that point - so i was just trying to clear it up

The main thing about islam is basically this: Quran is authoritative. If there are traditions that comply with what is in Quran then they can also be used to explain things, if they are radically different or explain something that is not in Quran, or dont fit in with our current reason and knowledge, then they are rejected and not used (regarded as weak). The traditions are kept for reference, but not used to supply information regarding any principles of law or theology. (Lipster - i am sure the Talamudic tradition and other things are similar in that respect?).

Also the fact that the Sunan of al-Tirmidhi as far as i know is not one of the most commonly used and "authenticated" books - they are sahih bukhari, sahih muslim, sunan abu-dawood and the muwatta of malik. Without going in to too much detail on how all these traditions are codified and classified - that book particularly contains many so called "ahad" hadith which tend to be those originally narrated by only one person or at most a couple and then passed down the lineage till it was recorded. Many of the others were narrated originally by tens and hundreds (if not more people) and passed down to thousands... just to give some idea of the scale of these things and how they rank on importance - Muhammads last speech was witnessed by over 100 000 people.

Basically Quran even tells us that the descriptions of heaven and hell etc. are all allegorical in nature and a "similitude". Of course there are different sects and different interpretations on these kind of theological things - some are extremely literal as you cited above while many are actually not. Some when making mention of this tradition as well as other chapters in Quran that talk about this stuff explain that as its a simillitude, then it cannot be likened to the reality as the reality is unknowable. So it gets pretty complicated and diverse.

The main thing that saddens me about all of this is that i do know palestinians who now live here and thankfully have escaped the life there, and they have told me many things about the hate from the so called "islamic" leaders there and other things. This is what worries me the most - especially as now in the UK (and US) all these psuedo-islamic political groups are making themselves more well known.

I found a good little "blog" on iraq from an everyday iraqi perspective: Bahdads' Burning. They are from a while ago but the girl there really talks about some interesting stuff and it is also up to date too.

anyway bedtime here
take it easy folks,
dave