911 is a joke

[onesp1ng]

"always question, question, question"

i ask anyone who is serious in their willingness to better understand the events of 9/11 to watch this video till its completion.

'whatever you may think of this research, do not call it "disinformation."'

[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8045542387672451515"]September Clues[/ame]

this is public record. please, examine it.

[liutangsanzang]

whoever is behind 9/11 has a kind of paranoia illness

please inquire into the world of paranoia in psischiatri if u want to understand 9/11

and watch urself if u have ani simptoms, it might be easi to get contaminated

here from wikipedia

Paranoia is a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards yourself. In the original Greek, παράνοια (paranoia) simply means madness (para = outside; nous = mind). Historically, this characterization was used to describe any delusional state.
Sometimes in common usage, the term paranoia is misused to describe a phobia. For example, a person may not want to fly out of fear the plane may crash. This does not in itself indicate paranoia, but rather a phobia. The lack of blame in this case usually points to the latter. An example of paranoia, however, would be fear that the pilot is an alcoholic with no evidence to suggest such, and would crash the plane as a result of this.
Contents


[hide]

• <LI class=toclevel-1>1 Use in psychiatry <LI class=toclevel-1>2 History <LI class=toclevel-1>3 See also <LI class=toclevel-1>4 References
  • 4.1 Notes
  • 4.2 Further reading
    • 4.2.1 tags

[edit] Use in psychiatry


More recently[1], the clinical use of the term has been used to describe delusions where the affected person believes he is being persecuted. Specifically, they have been defined as containing two central elements:

1. The individual thinks that harm is occurring, or is going to occur, to him or her.
2. The individual thinks that the persecutor has the intention to cause harm.

Paranoia is often associated with psychotic illnesses, sometimes schizophrenia, although attenuated features may be present in other primarily non-psychotic diagnoses, such as paranoid personality disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder. Paranoia can also be a side effect of medication or recreational drugs such as marijuana and particularly stimulants such as methamphetamine and crack cocaine. In the unrestricted use of the term, common paranoid delusions can include the belief that the person is being followed, poisoned or loved at a distance (often by a media figure or important person, a delusion known as erotomania or de Clerambault syndrome). Other common paranoid delusions include the belief that the person has an imaginary disease or parasitic infection (delusional parasitosis); that the person is on a special quest or has been chosen by God; that the person has had thoughts inserted or removed from conscious thought; or that the person's actions are being controlled by an external force. Therefore, in common usage, the term paranoid addresses a range of mental conditions, assumed by the use of the term to be of psychiatric origin, in which the subject is seen to generalise or project fears and anxieties onto the external world, particularly in the form of organised behaviour focused on them. The syndrome is applied equally to powerful people like executives obsessed with takeover bids or political leaders convinced of plots against them, and to common people who believe for instance that shadowy agencies are operating against them.

[edit] History

The term paranoia was used to describe a mental illness in which a delusional belief is the sole or most prominent feature. In his original attempt at classifying different forms of mental illness, Kraepelin used the term pure paranoia to describe a condition where a delusion was present, but without any apparent deterioration in intellectual abilities and without any of the other features of dementia praecox, the condition later renamed schizophrenia. Notably, in his definition, the belief does not have to be persecutory to be classified as paranoid, so any number of delusional beliefs can be classified as paranoia. For example, a person who has the sole delusional belief that he is an important religious figure would be classified by Kraepelin as having 'pure paranoia'. Even at the present time, a delusion need not be suspicious or fearful to be classified as paranoid. A person might be diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic without delusions of persecution, simply because his delusions refer mainly to himself, such as believing he is a CIA agent or a famous member of royalty.

[edit] See also

• Delusional disorder
• Distrust
• Ideas of reference
• Monomania

• Paranoid personality disorder
• Pronoia (psychology)
• Schizophrenia

Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by paranoia and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others. (DSM-IV) For a person's personality to be considered a personality disorder, an enduring pattern of characteristic maladaptive behaviors, thinking and personality traits must be present from the onset of adolescence or early adulthood. Additionally, these behaviors, traits and thinking must be present to the extent that they cause significant difficulties in relationships, employment and other facets of functioning.
Those with paranoid personality disorder are hypersensitive, are easily slighted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions to validate their prejudicial ideas or biases. They tend to be guarded and suspicious and have quite constricted emotional lives. Their incapacity for meaningful emotional involvement and the general pattern of isolated withdrawal often lend a quality of schizoid isolation to their life experience. [1]

Differential diagnosis:

• Because of the surface similarities of the paranoia involved, it is important that the Paranoid Personality Disorder not be confused with paranoid schizophrenia, another totally different type of mental disorder where the patient has constant feelings of being watched, followed or persecuted.

Contents


[hide]

• <LI class=toclevel-1>1 Descriptive diagnosis per American DSM-IV-TR <LI class=toclevel-1>2 European description per ICD-10 <LI class=toclevel-1>3 Cultural Sensitivities <LI class=toclevel-1>4 Epidemiology <LI class=toclevel-1>5 Treatment <LI class=toclevel-1>6 See also <LI class=toclevel-1>7 References
• 8 External links

[edit] Descriptive diagnosis per American DSM-IV-TR

Paranoid personality disorder is listed in the DSM-IV-TR as 301.00 Paranoid Personality Disorder.

According to the DSM-IV-TR, this disorder is characterized by a pervasive distrust and suspicion of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

• Suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her
• Is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates
• Is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her
• Reads benign remarks or events as threatening or demeaning.
• Persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights
• Perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack
• Has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner.

The traits, behaviors and characteristics

• Do not occur exclusively during the course of a mood disorder accompanied by psychotic features nor other psychotic disorders.
• Are not due to the direct physiological effects of a general medical condition.

[edit] European description per ICD-10

The ICD-10 lists paranoid personality disorder as F60.0 Paranoid Personality Disorder.
This personality disorder is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
(a) excessive sensitiveness to setbacks and rebuffs;
(b) tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights;
(c) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
(d) a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation;
(e) recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
(f) tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
(g) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

Includes:

• expansive paranoid, fanatic, querulant and sensitive paranoid personality (disorder)

Excludes:

• delusional disorder
• schizophrenia

Personality Disorders
A personality disorder is a severe disturbance in the characterological constitution and behavioral tendencies of the individual, usually involving several areas of the personality, and nearly always associated with considerable personal and social disruption. Personality disorder tends to appear in late childhood or adolescence and continues to be manifest into adulthood. It is therefore unlikely that the diagnosis of personality disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are presented below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the subtypes. Diagnostic Guidelines
Conditions not directly attributable to gross brain damage or disease, or to another psychiatric disorder, meeting the following criteria:
(a) markedly dysharmonious attitudes and behavior, involving usually several areas of functioning, e.g. affectivity, arousal, impulse control, ways of perceiving and thinking, and style of relating to others; (b) the abnormal behavior pattern is enduring, of long standing, and not limited to episodes of mental illness; (c) the abnormal behavior pattern is pervasive and clearly maladaptive to a broad range of personal and social situations; (d) the above manifestations always appear during childhood or adolescence and continue into adulthood; (e) the disorder leads to considerable personal distress but this may only become apparent late in its course; (f) the disorder is usually, but not invariably, associated with significant problems in occupational and social performance.
ICD-10 copyright © 1992 by World Health Organization.

[edit] Cultural Sensitivities

The WHO, in the ICD-10, points out for different cultures it may be necessary to develop specific sets of criteria with regard to social norms, rules and obligations.

[edit] Epidemiology

Paranoid personality disorder has a variously detected prevalence of 0.5-2.5% of the general population.[2]
A large long-term Norwegian twin study found paranoid personality disorder to be modestly heritable and to share a portion of its genetic and environmental risk factors with schizoid and schizotypal personality disorder.[3]

[edit] Treatment

Because of reduced levels of trust, there can be challenges in treating paranoid personality disorder. However, psychotherapy, antidepressants, and anti-anxiety medications can play a role when an individual is receptive to intervention.[4]

[dogchow108]

The irony here rather funny.

[Maestro]

onesp1ng if you were as good at gung fu as you were at finding solid info on 9/11 i would have to come to taiwan or hong kong or wherever u are to kick your ass lolo

[liutangsanzang]

I have seen ur video on september clues. Very puzzling. I still have no conclusion. I thought the video drew too fast conclusions, and that is a bit paranoiac. They constantly say: "It is fake"

I ve sent the link to some friends who are in politics in France to ask their opinion. The first answer was that to doubt in this case is paranoia and historical revisionism. Interesting that just like Panda the guy mentioned the nazi gas chambers. But i guess he didnt even watch the video. The fact that he talked about paranoia, in my sense, points out to a fear of paranoia in case of doubting the official version. I think it is really interesting to see how people are afraid to go away from official beliefs because they feel like they would become mad. It is an obstacle one has to be conscious of in searching and sharing the truth. The funny thing is that the paranoiac is not the one who doubts but the one who do not doubt.

U asked me also to elaborate more on what i feel is the paranoia of Bush and Bin Laden.

They have in common the fact that they see their opponents as absolutly evil and that they both use religious vocabulary to describe him. Psychotics are often subjects to mystical delirium.

One remedy against the tendancy to see someone as absolutly evil, might be the natural goodness in every sentient being. Nobody is completly evil but has to some extents seeds of love.

Again whoever was behind 9/11 had some paranoiac tendencies. But the funny thing is that both sides might have good reasons to think the other one is evil...

I try to stay in a middle way.

Peace and love

[onesp1ng]

interesting. thanks, liu. and you may be right about the speed at which some of the conclusions are made. the key, i think, though, is that these arguments exist and many people are unaware of them.

i actually remember on 9/11 sitting there for a few of those videos, being like, "huh? that didn't make sense at all." my background, however, is in broadcasting, video editing, etc., so perhaps i think from more of a technical perspective when approaching the broadcast media since interning my senior year at college in a news room. i see the mainstream news media in america to be relayed and marketed in a very mind-numbing, force fed manner - with competition at its root.

you may understand what kind of wall people are up against by sharing in unofficial theories. when research leads them to believe emphatically in their positions, i don't blame them for trying to get the message out. although you may not always agree with the syntax in which they do it, maybe try focusing on the content more.

i find it interesting that people rationalize how three buildings disappeared into 'baby power,' and how two "aluminum planes" can be absorbed into steel reinforced concrete buildings without any indication of deceleration. there is, what some claim to be, conclusive chemical proof of demolitions as well. few look at it objectively.

the alternative is just too hard to imagine, i guess. conclusions are basically made for us based on preselected information and anything that challenges that paridym is grouped together as "conspiracy stuff." i don't really understand why so many people are afraid to break from official beliefs either.

anyhow, it should be interesting to hear what your friends have to say.

cheers..

[liutangsanzang]

whi are thei afraid to break official belief?

well i tell u iesterdai night i had a hard time finding sleep after watching ur video and thinking there is no god! scari...

[liutangsanzang]

I just finished watching Zeitgeist, veri puzzling.

though i still feel uneasi that thei affirm some truth without doubt, makes me think of paranoia

Still the fact for instance that there is no trace of plane in the pentagon or shankville is so strange

but to think also that conspirators would not have thought about it is strange

i m just puzzled and do not draw ani conclusion
makes me think we must be veri awake and think and get a lot of information and deepli meditate on non violence

i m reading about Marx these dais and his attempt to escape philosophi, that s veri interesting

i deepli believe that 2 understand politics it is good to read some political philosophi books

and just 2 friends from mi business school, political school and socialist parti have answered about the documentari on september clues

dont know what 2 think about it

it s not the first time i feel frustrated about an absence of debate

a lot of them probabli think i have too mani strange ideas

for instance when i talk about vegetarianism, animal suffering of buddhism, thei look at me like an alien or a mad man

on the whole from mi experience in political actitivities i feel that is a lot about asserting the ego
for instance inside the same political parti thei will think a lot of bad things about other members

of course it is veri hard to go out of the dialectic of contradiction but that s what i am working on through an attempt to rethink the socratic dialectic of 2 ignorant person triing to reach truth through a loving debate


peace and love

[onesp1ng]

relevant article:

It's often the case with geopolitical events that things are not always what they seem. If you believe the Official Report on the London Bombings of 7/7, it's probably because you haven't had an opportunity to see the following evidence. The smoking gun may actually be much closer to home than we previously thought. On 7/7 a number of unbelievable coincidences and irregularities took place which should warrant a full investigation and although the responsibility rests on our government and law enforcement to bring this story to light, it is also in the best interests of every member of the public to demand a full and transparent report on these events.

If an independent investigation were to be re-opened, the first call should be made to the heads of Visor Consultants in London. Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an "unnamed business client". The fictional scenario that Visor were running that morning was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time... at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring. If investigators were able to find out the name of Visor's unnamed business client, they would be one step closer to explaining what really happened that day.

Long serving members of the Britain's government and intelligence agencies have come out in public and declared the government's involvement in the events of 7/7, but they cries have been virtually ignored by the mainstream press.

In almost identical fashion, a set of 9/11 war games took place, based on hijacked jets hitting the exact same targets at the exact same time as the real events which took place. These war games are generally ignored in the official 9/11 story, and when pressed, the claim is made by officials(like on 7/7) that some of the war games 'helped speed the response' to the situation. Now we can see a real pattern emerging. The media and the 9/11 Commission Report did not dare prepare a full list of all of the war games underway that morning, even though all of them have been mentioned in some sort of official context or mainstream media article. Like on 7/7, it is difficult to believe that it is a bizarre 'coincidence' that the military and CIA were conducting identical war games similar to 9/11 on September 11, 2001. Many other irregularities that don't jibe with the official reports took place on both days, and can easily fill more pages than we have space to write in here. All of these points are available to the public to research on the web.

It would strike any educated person with some common sense, that the odds of identical war games taking place on both those days where the very same 'terrorist' attacks took place- are beyond astronomical. To say that the US and Britain were simply "unlucky" on 9/11 and 7/7 is an almost surreal proposition. Experts have calculated these odds with standard actuary tables used by major insurance companies, to calculate the probability of terror drills and actual attack events coinciding in a 10 year mean and it was "one in 300 pretagillion". That's a number greater than the number of grains of sand on this planet. My answer to the official story: too many questions and not enough answers.

History has proven beyond a doubt that the majority of "Terrorism" and terrorist incidents we have witnessed since WWII are in fact State-sponsored terror. There is now enough official declassified evidence available to the public which document this disturbing trend of "False Flag" attacks by Western Governments. Documented examples include the Reichstag Fire(sparked Hitler's rise to power), Operation Ajax(1953 CIA Coup in Iran), the Gulf of Tonkin Incident(our excuse to escalate the Vietnam War), USS Liberty incident (Israel's destruction of a decorated US ship during the Six Day War) and Operation Gladio- the CIA & NATO's terror operations in Italy which culminated in the infamous Bologna Bombing of 1980. All these events provided the context for a major conflict, the installation of an authoritarian regime, or to further a wider global agenda. In each and every case, the media covered the initial lie, while history eventually revealed the truth. All each case, the government and the media immediately produced a set of terrorists or culprits and in every case, history eventually found them to be innocent of those crimes. In the case of 7/7 and 9/11, the same principles can also apply.

Repeated attempts by the families, first responders and fire fighters of 9/11 to re-open the investigation to events on the day, have all fell on deaf ears. George Bush went on national TV and declared, "Let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories", and Tony Blair echoed his position in Britain, claiming that the nation "are traumatised and must move on from the events of 7/7", in effect squashing all independent attempts to re investigate numerous irregularities on the day. A mainstream CNN poll show that 90% of Americans believe there is a US Government cover-up surrounding 9/11. With this level of public discontent now in the open, perhaps it would be a good time for the people in both the US and Britain to demand a full and open independent investigation into both events and 9/11 and 7/7. With so much at stake, and with so much now invested in our alleged new enemy, brand "Al Qeada", both populations deserve nothing less than all the facts laid out in a transparent manner by our own authorities.

We should all take more than a casual interest in the events on 7/7 and 9/11 because the official interpretation of these events have, in so many ways, reshaped the very fabric of our society and have all but destroyed our Bill of Rights. The hands of our Western governments' intelligence agencies reach into areas which many ordinary members of the public can neither understand nor fathom- yet these are all paid for by our taxes and are meant to be accountable to the people. It's a very dark road we are being led down- if we do not turn the current illusion around. The price we are paying abroad is huge, but the price we are paying at home is practically unknowable. Think about the changes we have seen in our own societies, and where those changes are taking us.

Don't take my word for it. Do your own research and discuss these important issue with friends, colleagues and family. Wake up world.

http://www.helium.com/debates/77025-qaeda-blame-summer-scares/side_by_side

300 pretagillion, as i am told, looks something like this:

300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000

- simply "beyond astronomical !"

[onesp1ng]

Bush planned Iraq 'regime change' before becoming President

By Neil Mackay

A SECRET blueprint for US global domination reveals that President Bush and his cabinet were planning a premeditated attack on Iraq to secure 'regime change' even before he took power in January 2001.

The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice-president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says: 'The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'

The PNAC document supports a 'blueprint for maintaining global US pre-eminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests'.

This 'American grand strategy' must be advanced for 'as far into the future as possible', the report says. It also calls for the US to 'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' as a 'core mission'.

The report describes American armed forces abroad as 'the cavalry on the new American frontier'. The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document written by Wolfowitz and Libby that said the US must 'discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role'.

this is the same document, whereby a statement is made in 'creating today's dominant force,' that says the 'process of transformation' to american global dominance will be a slow one "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[doc]

History has proven beyond a doubt that the majority of "Terrorism" and terrorist incidents we have witnessed since WWII are in fact State-sponsored terror. There is now enough official declassified evidence available to the public which document this disturbing trend of "False Flag" attacks by Western Governments. Documented examples include the Reichstag Fire(sparked Hitler's rise to power), Operation Ajax(1953 CIA Coup in Iran), the Gulf of Tonkin Incident(our excuse to escalate the Vietnam War), USS Liberty incident (Israel's destruction of a decorated US ship during the Six Day War) and Operation Gladio- the CIA & NATO's terror operations in Italy which culminated in the infamous Bologna Bombing of 1980. All these events provided the context for a major conflict, the installation of an authoritarian regime, or to further a wider global agenda. In each and every case, the media covered the initial lie, while history eventually revealed the truth.

He's not reading the same history books I have.

There was a Dutch guy who was found there, who had significant political leanings. The fire might have been from him and Hitler took advantage of the situation, or, he may have been a scapegoat. The jury is out on it. Most of your respected WWII historians go with the Dutch guy as arsonist story, and Hitler taking advantage.

Same with the Tonkin incident. I've read a few books on it, most feel that there was reason to believe they were under attack.

I read about the Six Day War. Israel's firing upon our warship was a genuine mistake.

But he's right. The majority of terror incidents in the late twentieth century have been state sponsored. The Palestinians may not have sponsored them per se, but they were involved in training and equipment, etc, with a lot of the European terrorist incidents brought about by European leftist groups. So, he's right in a way, but not in the way that he thinks he is.

[onesp1ng]

the point being made was that people are extremely gullible. military exercises aimed at the same targets under the same conditions are not a coincidence. they are a scapegoat.

Report reveals Vietnam War hoaxes, faked attacks
Jan 7, 2008

WASHINGTON (AFP) — North Vietnamese made hoax calls to get the US military to bomb its own units during the Vietnam War, according to declassified information that also confirmed US officials faked an incident to escalate the war.

The report was released by the National Security Agency, responsible for much of the United States' codebreaking and eavesdropping work, in response to a "mandatory declassification" request, the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) said Monday.

From the first intercepted cable -- a 1945 message from Vietnamese leader Ho Chi Minh to his Russian counterpart Joseph Stalin -- to the final evacuation of US spies from Saigon, the 500-page report retold Vietnam War history from the perspective of "signals intelligence", the group said in a statement.

During the war, North Vietnamese intelligence units sometimes succeeded in penetrating US communications systems, and they could monitor American message traffic from within, according to the report "Spartans in Darkness".

On several occasions "the communists were able, by communicating on Allied radio nets, to call in Allied artillery or air strikes on American units", it said.

"That's something I have never heard before," Steven Aftergood, director of the FAS project on government secrecy, told AFP.

But he said that probably the "most historically significant feature" of the declassified report was the retelling of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident.

That was a reported North Vietnamese attack on American destroyers that helped lead to president Lyndon Johnson's sharp escalation of American forces in Vietnam.

The author of the report "demonstrates that not only is it not true, as (then US) secretary of defense Robert McNamara told Congress, that the evidence of an attack was 'unimpeachable,' but that to the contrary, a review of the classified signals intelligence proves that 'no attack happened that night,'" FAS said in a statement.

"What this study demonstrated is that the available intelligence shows that there was no attack. It's a dramatic reversal of the historical record," Aftergood said.

"There were previous indications of this but this is the first time we have seen the complete study," he said.

declassified intelligence proves that 'no attack happened that night.' they perpetrated a lie, covered it up, and the american media backed and sensationalized it.

the us government has no credibility. they lied then, they lie now.

[liutangsanzang]

Doc, u r making an interesting point there. As a basque i would not deny the existence of leftist terrorism and its international structure, though the international network is probably weaker than what u think, everybody being concerned by his own national fight.

The question however is that in front we have state sponsored terrorisms. I ve made a post about Operation Condor in SOuth America, we talked about 9/11 in Chile, here we talk about extreme right in Italy being sponsored by CIA, i could talk about the GAL in Spain that might have been a form of state sponsored terrorism against ETA.

I dont like to affirm things when i dont know so i doubt all this, but there seems to be a lot of evidence.

How can you say the Tonkin incident is true, when you dont know? If you do this i feel u fall in a form of paranoia where the paranoiac does not doubt his constructions about evil people.

Paranoia is not doubt, it is not doubting.

And by the way when did the palestinians have a state? Would u say the native american indians had a state and they were terrorists? Even if i think that thanks to Gandhi we can see that violence can be a crime when it comes to independant struggle, there are many examples of violent struggles for independance that seem legitimate. Were the french resistance to the nazis terrorists?

Peace and love

[doc]

Didn't say it was true Liu. Just said that there was some basis in fact for it. From the books on the Vietnam war that I've read (and I've read most of them), the majority do not deny that there were "threatening" ships present.

Question is, just how ''threatening" they were. Of the two incidents, the first was proven, the second questionable.

Johnson, who didn't want the damn war but used it out of fear of the Soviet Union, was probably in no mind to create some sort of incident to escalate what was going on. He was in the process of increasing advisers to the region regardless as I recall.

[doc]

the point being made was that people are extremely gullible.

As evidenced by the last election.

Al Franken for the Senate in Minnesota? What are they thinking up there, LOL.