Glucosamine and Chondroitin

[LeiYunFat]

Sitting in a horse for any period of time over 5 min is substantially different than weighted squats. There are basically three ways you can train a muscle: max effort(<4 sets of <5 reps @ a 4-5 rep max), endurance (basically, tons of sets and tons of reps with a fairly low weight compared to your 1rm...or holding a horse in this case), and hypertrophy(size, <3 sets 8-12 reps at a lower weight).

And Doc, a stiff legged deadlift is a deadlift off the ground and bending down with stiff legs, kind of like trying to touch your toes with weights in your hand, while maintaining good posture of course. This will extend the hamstrings and therefore "work" them.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBStraightLegDeadlift.html

His back is rounded, which isn't a good example, but you get the idea.

[doc]

OK, I do still legged deadlifts. Personally, I don't do them that much anymore, as I find that if you're not really csreful, you really put yourself in a position to irritate a lumbar disc, and, strain the lumbar musculature. There are better ways to strengthen the lower back, such as swimming.

As for horse stances, that's a good question. If you do them "not low", whereby the angle of the thigh with respect to the lower leg is large, then it really shouldn't be a problem, as the forces that are acting on the knee are still within proper range for its structure. Sitting in a low horse and proper horse stance (90 degree flexion at knee), puts the knee in an anatomical situation whereby it can support weight, but not as it should. The immobility of the joint, and the constant flexion of the hamstrings and quads to keep the position, actually adds strength to the joint, which I think helps prevent injury. Motion of the joint at that angle, with added weight, causes fluid and internal cartilaginous structures to move, which I think contribute to potential damage.

I hate horse stances by the way. Even low sitting ones where you support yourself by putting your back against the wall.

Do this as an experiment. Try holding a "standing" horse stance for two minutes, one whereby you're not sitting low at all. Figiure an angle of 130 degrees or so between upper and lower leg. Then, get into a low horse stance, whereby the angle between upper and lower leg is less than 90 degrees (and "cheat", by resting your back against a wall, so that you're "sitting" against a wall. Do that for two minutes, and then let us know how your knees feel.

[LeiYunFat]

The horse with the higher angle, isn't that more quad dominant than the more glute involving low angle horses? If so, doesn't that make the two very different animals? I noticed that after doing horse stance training for a majority of my leg workouts, my hamstrings and glutes were sorely lacking, despite their huge importance to any type of athletic performance.

[tetsumaru]

i take calcium magnesium zinc combonation supplements whether that works for my knees or not i dont know. I just dont creak and crack. that and less sugar helps.

[master splinter]

Doc, great suggestion, but im far past the wall stage, p.s. i hate stance training too, but i love the results.

i also noticed that in comparison between the 3 methods of working the muscle, as lyf stated, the first two, heavy weight low reps & low weight high reps, as opposed to horse stance type training. Horse stances fatigue your muscles, but even if you hold it for an hour, you wont be sore at all the next day, vs, doing squats and not being able to move the next day.

i wonder why this is, anyone have any idea?

[LeiYunFat]

Adaptation. I can squat and not be sore too incredibly sore, but when I do horse I feel it more post-workout. However, I haven't used horse as a training staple for about a year or so. I used to be the opposite. And, as always, it depends on your diet and the amount of rest you get.

[doc]

The distance that you lower yourself will affect how you stretch and work the various muscle groups. Just keep in mind that I was referring to the anatomical position of the bones (knee joint) and the stresses on that. Low horse stances are going to stretch and work the quads quite a bit, however, maintaining dynamic tension for a period of time might not "work" the muscles as much as putting a load on them and making them move in a repetitive fashion, all depending upon the range of movement and the load applied. This is why you see the difference in pain after the various workouts.

[To Dai]

I find 50 non-weights squats in 4 sets (200 total) to be most beneficial. But then, due to torn ligaments from rugby at a much younger age my knees aren't as aggrevation free as they could be I'm sure.

As to the efficacy of the supplements: I have tried a lot, including this combination and have to say that they don't really work for me. Cod liver oil gives some improvement whilst a good Dit Da poultace gives good relieve from more severe bouts of pain and creaking. I also find that my knees seem to be in better shape if i swim regularly as well.

[Firbolg]

Well after a couple of months taking fish oil capsules every day (well most days, 1 'extra strength' capsule each time) plus a tin of sardines a couple of times a week, there has been a noticeable difference - one knee no longer crunches at all when walking up and down stairs.. still a bit when doing low(ish) stances but otherwise nothing at all. The other knee which was always worse is still crunching but I think its not as bad although its hard to tell. Didn't try the glucosamine or anything else yet.

So there you go.. my entirely non-scientifc evidence that fish oil is good shit. Or maybe its just the weather..

[doc]

Or, maybe just the healing effects of time. I've found that knees "get better" over a period of months, as opposed to other tissues, such as skin, which has a healing process over weeks. But, the efficacy of fish oil is apparently uncontested, we've yet to really talk about that, and it's a good thing to take.

[Firbolg]

Actually both knees have been clicking and crunching for many years so its strange that it suddenly improved.. wouldn't have expected any such noticeable result so soon anyway but I'm not complaining, just hope it lasts!

[doc]

For further information, see this:

http://forum.russbo.com/showthread.php/4286-Chondroitin-and-Glucosamine-Current-thinking-and-efficacy