effect of directing the qi

[Blue Sky]

P.S. from Blue Sky - To give an example, Vaclav Havel said, "I think the Anthropic Cosmological Principle brings us to an idea perhaps as old as humanity itself: that we are not at all just an accidental anomaly, the microscopic caprice of a tiny particle whirling in the endless depths of the universe, But instead, we are mysteriously connected to the entire universe..."

[arhat]

most of that material is dated. I understand in the new addition he has tried to answer some of the criticism lodged against him but am honestly not sure of how successful (if he was at all) at addressing them.

I have to apologize- I got confused between Zukov and Capra. Zukov wrote Dancing Wu Li Masters.

Anyway, I don't know of any major contribution to physics or quantum mechanics that has been posited by Capra. I've never seen any of his work printed in a peer reviewed journal, and as such I feel like he should be talen with a grain of sea salt. It's not like he's Michio Kaku. You can't argue from authority and you can draw the same weak parallels Capra draws from say- bowling. I think he's a little loose with his words and concepts.

read the link.

if you are looking for QM to suggest the existence of the Tao or chi, you are stretching it to fit something it doesn't necessitate.

Capra says he is trying to draw parrallels between science and mysticism. That's about all you can say- he is wrong to suggest parallels between the two are necessarily reflective of some set of immutable truths or his readers are wrong to draw such conclusions.

There are lots of parallels. I can make parallels to the gospels, gnostic texts. Does that mean Buddhists are Gnostics? It would depend on which parallels I choose to explore.

My biggest complaint, is that Capra seems to confuse intuition with knowledge, as opposed to understanding that intuition is a method of gaining knowledge- a confusion or a conceit on his part to make mysticism fit QM- the scientist and the mystic are not achieving the same thing, they are not working to the same goal or dealing with the same observations.

Rational observation and metaphorical observation are the same thing?

My other big criticism of Capra's work is that he somehow feels like there needs to be a connection between Eastern Mysticism and Western Science for there to be validity in either, as if there was nothing in eastern mysticism that was anti eastern science, so to speak, or vice versa.

I think there was a sociologist who poked a couple of big holes through Capra's work. I will look for his name, but I fear his work was never really produced in anything mainstream and I doubt I could track it down as it was published in some deep peer journal.

[zachsan]

BS is trying to put himself in a can't-lose situation here. agree that science can't prove or disprove the existence of qi, claim that "western hubris" is the reason we can't all see that there is obviously qi, and then say that quantum mechanics somehow proves or implies that it exists. he refuses to acknowledge basic principles of science (such as the difference between observation and speculation), but has no problem whatsoever basing his ideas on controversial subjects on the scientific fringe. or, i should say, hijacking those ideas to mean something they do not.

see "Forum / Library > EASTERN ORIENTAL THOUGHT, PHILOSOPHY, HISTORY AND LANGUAGES > Buddhism > The Concepts > Crazy Idea2: Viewing third and fourth dimensions", for a better idea of what bluesky is about. also, i posted a link at the end of DDJ's "on science" thread that deals with the quantum mechanics issue.

[arhat]

I think one of the most dangerous deceptions is going East to explain West.

The West was full of similar ideas as the Tao, etc. Ether, for one...I forget, Plato or someone...

Anyway, if you read any of Fritjof's critics they basically poke holes in his allusions all day long, along very similar lines which you have laid out above.

[arhat]

The Absurdity of Attempting a "Rational Argument" Against the Use of Rational Arguments


Everything in the world needs to be interpreted and understood rationally, or in other words, investigated and understood scientifically. You could reply "But this is one of the basic questions at issue!" Yes, it is. Capra and all his mystic friends claim that many of the most important things about the "world" can only be discovered through "intuition" and mystical meditation, and yet he feels compelled to use language and what he supposes to be rational argument in an attempt to prove this point!


I have more respect for the Zen masters who "reason" with their students by punching them out. At least they are consistent in their view that reasoning is not the road to "enlightenment"!


Just why is it that mystics so often feel compelled to use language to explain what they maintain cannot be expressed with language? Or to use arguments to prove what they themselves maintain cannot be proven by argument? Or to try to enlighten others through rationality when their own theory says that this is not the way it can be accomplished? The answer can only be that at least one part of them does not believe their own theory. They are inconsistent, confused, all mixed up, irrational and at bottom incoherent.

Found this little gem in some of my clippings, from a critical analysis of Fritjof...

I think it is spot on.

[Adam K.]

Hello. I am Adam. I am a student. It is my understanding that qi is more of a synthesis of various types of energies that exist in the body. The body is regulated by the brain, which is powered by bioelectromagnetic energy. A type of energy that contains electric and magnetic properties that is exists on a cellular level. The human body creates various other types of energy as well. As we digest the food that we eat, we are converting potential energy into kinetic energy (again on a cellular level via. enzymes, hormones, protiens and such) which is of a various form according to what it is that we are digesting. In example some foods are yin or yang. Some have more pre birth chi; some more post birth chi. As we breathe we are supplying oxygen to our blood stream which acts as fuel to the fire ( the warm sensation that many experience). There are three warmers that exist in the body. They are responsible for creation, cultivation, and circulation of these types of energy. All of the energies encompassed together are the driving force of chi. Chi should not be directed so much as it should be guided, for to direct the flow hinderes its natural tendency. This is why chi gung plays an iseperable role in TCM, along with diet and medicine. If one part of the system is out of balance, the rest are affected accordingly. Building martial chi for fighting application relies on having a strong chi to begin with. An awesome book about the cultivation of this type of chi is Bone marrow cleansing brainwashing/ muscle tendon changing classic by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. Sifu Daniel Eckart opened my mind wide by letting me read his copy. The book is a present rendition of the great Damo treatise. I would suggest looking into TCM to better understand what chi is and how to cultivate it instead of trying to measure or quantify it. It is believed that if your chi is strong and well cultivated, the energy goes where needed without thought. A couple other good books that help lend some insight are: The way of Tai Chi by Jou Tsung Hwa, Traditional Chinese Medicine by Daniel Reid, and a book called Vibrational Medicine of which the authors name evades me at present. Never stop searching. There is always something new to be learned.


Peace,
Adam K.

[arhat]

thanks Adam K.

That explains everything.

[andrewr47]

lol... yeah, blame some guy from 3000 years ago. certainly it has nothing to do with the fact that you, XJ and BS refused to just define the damn word in the first place.

hmm in a post just above u mentioned i didnt have to define the word but rather it is ur fault in implying that the word has any metaphysical meanings attached to it. so why are u now again asking me to define the damn word

[zachsan]

i didn't say you don't have to define it. when you're in a discussion of this nature then obviously you need to define what it is that you're talking about. i had to assume you meant the word in the metaphysical sense, because that's what the word means, and you didn't specify that you meant anything else by it.

[Adam K.]

Yeah,...umm. Well I read in a thing that researchers studying the qi meridians of rabbits found there to be tiny pathways that show up when injected with some stuff. These pathways correspond to nothing but the chinese pulse meridians. Once these geniuses discovered this, they took some samples of the juices coursing through these canals and found that they had a makeup of stuff kind of like hormones only not like hormones. These guys are theorizing, based off of further fetal studies, that the meridian structures are formed before the other systems (nerves, arteries -n- stuff, tissues -n- organs -n- stuff) and that is how the meridians appear to pass through other structures and flow from outer to inner surfaces. All of the other bodily tissues actually grew around the meridians. They also did some studies involving cutting off the chi flow to certain organs and logged the detrimental effects. I would have liked to been there.


P.S. If you already know about this study, feel free to replace the words stuff and thing as you read through.
c-ya

[zachsan]

i suppose it would be too much to ask for a link to this 'thing'.

[zachsan]

i did a google search for "rabbit acupuncture study" and came up with a lot of interesting stuff (and a lot of bullshit), but couldn't find anything like what you mention.

also, what you do mention, up until "They also did some studies involving cutting off the chi flow...", while still doubtful, doesn't actually have anything to do with qi energy.