effect of directing the qi

[xing_jian108]

It usually takes some months to start feeling Qi in your body....

He will be healthier these days just from doing the movements though.

[arhat]

some of this is crapola.

Originally posted by xing_jian108

You can feel intense heat from the palms, enough to burn paper from a foot away. Ripley's Believe It Or Not..

It's a parlor trick. I've seen it a few times now, as part of the special abilities routine. Bar Mitzvah magicians do the same thing. Usually a kind of flash paper or potassium perchlorate mixture- you can use sugar and sulphuric acid.

Some people I've spoken to think it's not impressive when monks do a whole Qi Gong warm-up and then break things over them. They wonder why the monks can't just do it.

Many monks wonder this themselves. That prep thing is usually just for show, from the horse's mouth. People want to see the prep, so the monks often give them what they want to see.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by xing_jian108
If you really are interested in the proof you will practice it yourself and find out. Otherwise, no one cares.

which makes more sense? practice something for 10 years, then after 10 years decide whether or not it was worth those 10 years to practice it? or look for hard proof from someone who already does profess to have this skill, and then decide whether or not to practice it based on that proof?

as gongfu evolved in china, it was natural for people to want to see proof of its effectiveness before electing to train in it. nothing's changed, except that today, we have better and more reliable ways of getting that proof, without being fooled, and we ought to use them.

[xing_jian108]

Zach, you don't have to do it for a whole decade to feel the benefits. You can feel that just after some months.

And you will gain a healthier body simply from doing the movements. So, even if you never feel your Qi and are never able to break things over your body, you are still getting great health benefits from it. So, it's not a waste. The reason you won't practice is because you aren't interested. If you were really interested you would practice everyday for some months and find out yourself. It hardly takes 10 years of your life away.

Arhat- It doesn't have to be a trick. I'm talking about real Qi Gong. People can fake breaking metal over their heads or breaking spears on their throat, others can really do it, and each of them will credit that ability to Qi Gong.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[zachsan]

Originally posted by xing_jian108
Zach, you don't have to do it for a whole decade to feel the benefits. You can feel that just after some months.

i am no more inclined to waste an hour a day for a month than i am to waste an hour a day for a decade.

And you will gain a healthier body simply from doing the movements. So, even if you never feel your Qi and are never able to break things over your body, you are still getting great health benefits from it. So, it's not a waste. The reason you won't practice is because you aren't interested. If you were really interested you would practice everyday for some months and find out yourself. It hardly takes 10 years of your life away.

it has been demonstrated convincingly that tai chi and qigong have beneficial physical effects, that i don't dispute. i dispute the claims that it can give you extraordinary abilities. i may at some point decide to take up qigong in order to get healthier, but before i train for the purpose of gaining extraordinary abilities like jumping 20 feet in the air or becoming impervious to sharp objects, i want to see proof that this time will not be wasted. you can't tell me that's unreasonable.

Arhat- It doesn't have to be a trick. I'm talking about real Qi Gong. People can fake breaking metal over their heads or breaking spears on their throat, others can really do it, and each of them will credit that ability to Qi Gong.

people have been shown to seemingly do the exact same things using parlor tricks, so we know those particular people are frauds. you say certain people can do those things for real, without resorting to tricks. that's great, so they should prove it, and people like me will shut up. a controlled study is the best method we have for proving something, and making sure that there is no trickery involved. so far, no one has demonstrated the ability to do things like burning a piece of paper with qi energy in a controlled study. so why should i believe that this is possible without resorting to parlor tricks?

[xing_jian108]

I don't know who said you can jump 20 feet in the air. But sharp objects not hurting you can be done. Of course you can always have your arm chopped off with a sword. No one said it's possible to stop that. But a spear to the throat certainly can be proven, same with the metal bar over the head. I've done a demo of it at a TKD grandmaster seminar. They were all breaking concrete and stuff with hammer fists and whatever. I show them a spear, I show them a metal bar. They check to make sure it's all real. The spear snaps and the bar breaks. They don't need anymore proof. My Gong Fu bro laid down in on a kitchen floor at a restaurant and pulled his shirt up. The cooks sharpened their knives as much as possible, stood up on a chair, held the knife high in the air and let it go to his stomach. The knife bounced off. He didn't have a scratch. What more proof can we give them? No parlor tricks, no super-humans. Just normal people who practiced Qi Gong.

[zachsan]

ok, now point to a controlled study that compares those feats as performed by qigong masters to those same feats as performed by people who are skilled with this sort of thing but have not practiced qigong. if the qigong masters can do, in a controlled environment, something which other stuntmen cannot, that's proof that qigong has given them this ability.

[xing_jian108]

I don't know anyone who can break a spear by pushing their throat on the spear tip until the staff breaks, or push a car with it. Do you?

[arhat]

heat

I was specifically commenting on the paper lighting.

Spear bending I am aware of the tricks, so to speak, and the real.

In fact, I assisted Shi Yan Ming in his spear bending for the pain special filmed by the BBC.

In the "Love Edit" video, that is my foot which the spear butts are up against.

I could not duplicate the feat using my hand to protect my throat.

However, one has to be very careful about the special ability claims, as Zach mentioned, the chi stuff can get rather ridiculous and little of it has ever been satisfactorily demonstrated scientifically, which is one reason I applaud Yan Ming's openness regarding his skills and claims. He made the claims, and submitted to the scientific process.

I have yet to see other masters do that.

I have also seen way too many charlatans, at Shaolin and out of Shaolin, to just accept statement without proof.

[Asger]

Oh come on. Science thing is really interesting, but todays' science is so narrowminded.. It is great that martial artists are helping the scientists in their research, but as gong fu practitioners, we shouldn't be arguing on such matters. If one cannot think or accept things without it being proven first, he will never understand fully. Especially if it has to be proven inside the small frame of Today's Science....

Give yourselves a break here

[arhat]

Asger, how can science be 'narrowminded.'

That's impossible.

Science simply seeks explanation. Science by it's very definition is the observation of phenomena and experimental investigation of the observation to produce a theoretical, testable, methodological explanation of phenomena.

It does mean people can't levitate or blast chi balls, but today's science is far from narrowminded.

[xing_jian108]

One teaching of Buddhism is to not take things as truth without finding out for yourself. No matter what it is. So, I find it hard to believe a Shao Lin practicioner will question it and want scientific proof rather than practicing it themselves and proving to themselves what so many others have done.

The other things is, you don't really have to be too careful about the special ability claims of Qi Gong. Some things are unbelievable. But if you keep your mind in the realm of possibility, then you will easily see what is real and what is fake. Like jumping 20 feet or shooting Qi balls from across the room and knocking someone out. But things like taking body strikes (i was gonna say shots, but that sounds kinda funny) without being hurt. And the health benefits you get from practicing Qi Gong.

Other things like this are very possible. And as a Shao Lin Chan practicioner I would think you will trust your master is not deceiving you and you will put the teachings to practice to find out what is possible and what is not. This way you can only surprise yourself. No need for science. People who want scientific proof are not willing to trust the masters and train it themselves. They don't need to be given an answer. It's not for them. They don't need to worry about it and we don't need to worry about them.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[zachsan]

Originally posted by xing_jian108
The other things is, you don't really have to be too careful about the special ability claims of Qi Gong. Some things are unbelievable. But if you keep your mind in the realm of possibility, then you will easily see what is real and what is fake.

what criterea do you propose we use for determining what is and isn't inside the realm of possibility? your opinion is that we should just try it and find out. that's what scientific investigation boils down to, only it does it in a much more controlled way, and thus, gives us much better (read: more accurate and reliable) answers than we would get by simply "trying it and finding out".

actually, reading up on martial philosophy, and by extension, buddhism (to some extent), was a big part of what eventually got me into the frame of mind of demanding reliable proof for things. from that, it was only natural for me to look for the best possible means of proving something. if one guy comes up to me and says he's got hard proof for his claim, and another guy comes up to me and says "try it for yourself if you want proof", i'm gonna laugh in the second guy's face.

i think i'm gonna need to find at least 10 more ways of saying that before i give up on this thread.

anyway, the spear-bending thing brings up another issue, which is, burden of proof. if you make a claim outside the realm of what we know about physics ("my manipulation of qi energy makes me resistant to this spear"), then, since you're the one making the claim, you're the one with the burden of proving that claim to me, and i have no reason to believe anything you say until you offer me that proof.

bending spears on throats is something which i've only ever seen done by qigong masters, that's true. i don't know of anyone else even trying to do it, and that's the problem. if you want to prove to me that such a thing would be impossible without qigong, then you need to find me someone (a professional stuntman or magician or something) who is going to prepare for it and try it without practicing qigong. if no one who prepares for and tries this without using qigong can do it, then that's proof that it's an ability only attainable by practicing qigong.

by the way, if you can do this, james randi will give you a million dollars.

so far, all you've got is proof that spears can be bent on the neck. there's nothing to make a reasonable person believe that qigong is what gives this ability to people. i know i'm wordy, sorry, but i can't think of any better way to explain this.

[arhat]

Originally posted by xing_jian108
One teaching of Buddhism is to not take things as truth without finding out for yourself. No matter what it is. So, I find it hard to believe a Shao Lin practicioner will question it and want scientific proof rather than practicing it themselves and proving to themselves what so many others have done.

I think you should look a little more at what the Buddha was saying. Buddhism was a response to something, otherwise Buddha would have stayed an ascetic, trusting his masters. Scientific proof is practicing something yourself. Buddha also said words to the effect to always question. Without questioning you can not strip away dualities nor find your original state. The whole purpose of the kung an in Ch'an practice is to force a process of questioning to create intuitive understanding. So I can't understand why a Shaolin practitioner would just accept a practice blindly. Nowadays you have a lot of charlatans who can fool a lot of people. Just look at some of the beliefs on these internet forums. It is right and proper, and respectful to question.

And as a Shao Lin Chan practicioner I would think you will trust your master is not deceiving you and you will pu the teachings to practice to find out what is possible and what is not. This way you can only surprise yourself. No need for science. People who want scientific proof are not willing to trust the masters and train it themselves. They don't need to be given an answer. It's not for them. They don't need to worry about it and we don't need to worry about them.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian [/B]

Well I know I can trust Shi Yan Ming because he's actively debunked several charlatans and basically walked out on Qi Fei Long. Looking for scientific proof should not even be an issue, I could never understand what the big deal is, unless you have something to hide- if a master demonstrates his skill, he should be prepared to undergo a scientific observation- it's the same thing he's doing, just the conditions are different. As Yan Ming would say, very simple- just do it.

The reason why we need to be careful is because you have people like WKK and Qi Fei Long and they are making major stacks off the backs of gullible people, some of whom fork over thousands of dollars. If these guys had no students then we would not have to worry. If these guys were not proclaiming special abilities and miraculous healing powers that could place peopel in danger of losing their lives, then we would not have to worry.

To suggest there is no need for science is to simply suggest most people have a skewed perception of what science actually is. The methodology behind gong fu as a whole is a scientific method.

[xing_jian108]

How about all the generations of Shao Lin monks who were able to do these things? They trusted their masters words and went to practice it. Like the iron bar breaking over the head, it takes conditioning and Qi Gong practice. In the early stages you can feel more pain on your head when tapping it on a wall or beating it with a stick. But the more you practice the less it hurts. The more you practice Qi Gong, the less it hurts. Over time your head becomes as hard as a rock and the bar is broken easily. So through time you can feel that if you tried to break it in the early stages you would probably just knock yourself out.

All the generations of Shao Lin monks are almost the only people I know of who could do these things. They never had science to prove anything to them. They simply practiced it, and it worked for them. After things are working for them, why do they need science? This seems very much a western idea. You absolutely must have every possible detail as to why and how things happen. Science is good for other things because you can learn and build from it, but for breaking things on your head, science proving Qi allowing it is not going to get you anywhere. We already knew that. Just now you can say it is a fact. To the people who could already do it for years, it was already fact. Scientific proof of Qi Gong is for the non-believers in the western world who demand a scientific proof of every last thing. If you must have a scientific proof of Qi Gong, but also are a Buddhist, then why not try to find a scientific proof of Nirvana? You don't look for scientific proof of that but you live your life to reach it at some point. Isn't this the same as practicing Qi Gong to attain some level of physical ability without science proving it first? As Buddha said, the path lies before you and it will take you there. It's something that can be tested by anyone right here and now. Follow it. Put it to the test. See if your life doesn't change for the better, see if you can't perform these feats with Qi Gong practice.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian