effect of directing the qi

[zachsan]

well a lot of that i've already answered, so i'll try to keep my reply to what i haven't.

Originally posted by xing_jian108
In the early stages you can feel more pain on your head when tapping it on a wall or beating it with a stick. But the more you practice the less it hurts.

that's because nerves are dying on your head.

The more you practice Qi Gong, the less it hurts.

if you're going to hit your head against things, nerves are going to die and you're not going to feel as much pain, with or without qigong. again, if you can prove to me that your head will actually take less damage because of practicing qigong vs. not practicing qigong, you should.

You absolutely must have every possible detail as to why and how things happen.

it's not that we absolutey must. it's that we can. we can conduct experiments to find out what is actually happening when these feats are performed. so why shouldn't we? should we refuse to find out and continue to mindlessly accept tradition? does that follow buddhist ideals?

If you must have a scientific proof of Qi Gong, but also are a Buddhist, then why not try to find a scientific proof of Nirvana?

well i'm not a buddhist.

i have never said that qigong is useless. but whenever i ask for real proof of some of the more extraordinary claims, adherents will try to lead me in all kinds of logical circles to avoid providing me with any of that proof, as if my simple request is an insult to their entire practice. why? especially if there's real validity to these claims, and you can get paid a million plus bucks in the process? why?

[arhat]

you don't understand science or it's method. you seem to think it is a threat. it's already there, in the process, that's what I am saying- so what's the big deal? It has little to do with lack of trust, unless there is something shady going on. it's really pretty simple- you make a claim, the claim stands on the virtue of you being able to back it up, not on your reputation or who you are. It has always been thus in traditional circles. Like dharma transmission. You just can't say you have it and ask people to just trust you. You have to be a living embodiment of it.

the methods of the legitimately practicing Shaolin monks is entirely scientific. buddhism's principles are also very scientific- Gotama observed interbeing, for example.

of course, the order is also susceptible to fakery just like anything else.

but their iron body training is in general, a tested, observable phenomena and scientific in it's process and presentation to the student. No monk that I know has ever suggested the ability to withstand blunt trauma was a function of just moving their arms and thinking their chi someplace. Conditioning is a huge part of it.

of some monks. some are also tricky, like some of the guys who rip paper with their finger or break glass and rocks with one finger.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by arhat
but their iron body training is in general, a tested, observable phenomena and scientific in it's process and presentation to the student. No monk that I know has ever suggested the ability to withstand blunt trauma was a function of just moving their arms and thinking their chi someplace. Conditioning is a huge part of it.

i am only skeptical of the necessity to propose qi energy as an essential mechanism in this practice. the monks who do these things usually practice qigong along with conditioning. but there are karate guys who don't believe in chi, who still condition themselves and break all sorts of things on themselves. why then should we assume that the practice of qigong, not to mention qi energy, has anything to do with it?

[zachsan]

and to get back to the original question of this thread, i want to see what changes actually happen when qi is directed to that part of the body. does the spear encounter resistance before it touches the surface of the skin? does the skin momentarily become harder, or more resistant to breakage? does some kind of solid mass form beneath the surface of the skin?

it's not that i'm obsessed with specifics. it's that these specifics will be apparent if there is any real validity to these claims. if nobody knows these specifics, maybe it's because there's no validity to the claims.

[xing_jian108]

Conditioning is a big part of it of course. But to go really far in the conditioning you practice Qi Gong to be able to withstand the strikes even more.

I didn't say anything about taking it as truth just on tradition. I said trust your master is telling the truth. Practice it and you will prove to yourself that it works. Zachsan, you agree with the health benefits from Qi Gong. That is proof that at least something is happening in the body.

In the spear to the throat, the throat becomes harder with concentration of breath. There is no conditioning you can do to your throat. It's just focussing of Qi. Anyone who can do this will tell you it relies on breath control. With other things such as breaking wood over your arm or leg, Qi is focussed to the whole limb. Blood flows there causing it to swell and pad the bones. Focussing of Qi will first be a liquid form. Then it will become harder in the place it is concentrated making it easier to break the boards without injury or pain.

There is no scientific explaination of what happens because it's something very difficult to track. But the effects of the practice bring great health benefits as well as protection against things like the wooded poles, spear tips, and metal bars. To the people who feel the Qi, it is very real and nothing can disprove it because they feel it. They can move it and use it. They are aware of it all the time.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[daodejing]

Zach, that I'm aware of, there is no peer reviewed clinical research into specific local changes in physical properties of human anatomy while practicing any sort of Iron Body qigong.

It won't help you much to know what's "supposed" to be happening in your practice, you have to feel it for yourself.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by xing_jian108
I didn't say anything about taking it as truth just on tradition. I said trust your master is telling the truth. Practice it and you will prove to yourself that it works. Zachsan, you agree with the health benefits from Qi Gong. That is proof that at least something is happening in the body.

how is simply trusting whatever your master says any different than taking as truth on tradition? because it's relayed to you verbally by your master, rather than read by you in a book, you should believe it?

i do agree that something is happening in the body, both in qigong and acpuncture. that does not require that i accept traditional explanations of what that is. and i also don't agree with every claim i hear about the health benefits of qigong. it can help circulation and flexibility and relieve some pain. it can't cure cancer.

In the spear to the throat, the throat becomes harder with concentration of breath. There is no conditioning you can do to your throat. It's just focussing of Qi. Anyone who can do this will tell you it relies on breath control. With other things such as breaking wood over your arm or leg, Qi is focussed to the whole limb. Blood flows there causing it to swell and pad the bones. Focussing of Qi will first be a liquid form. Then it will become harder in the place it is concentrated making it easier to break the boards without injury or pain.

perfect! this is what chen zen was asking for when he first asked the question in this thread. this is pretty extraordinary stuff, if you think about it. humans are not generally understood to have conscious control over the flow of their blood. nor has anyone found the presence of any physical liquid in the body that we can direct throughout the body at will and harden at will. these, xingjian, are called empirical claims, that is, claims that can be tested and either shown to be true or false. so far they have not been shown to be true. if you are capable of making these things happen, i strongly suggest that you submit to a controlled study to prove it. if you can, you will become rich.

There is no scientific explaination of what happens because it's something very difficult to track.

we are very much capable of tracking the flow of blood throughout the body, and detecting whatever liquids might be in a particular part of the body at a certain time. if your hypothesis is true, then we wouldn't even need to use spears to test anything. we could just have the subject sit in a chair and direct qi to a certain part of the body, and then, monitor that body for changes in blood pressure, or take a sample to see if there are any strange liquids present.

Originally posted by daodejing
It won't help you much to know what's "supposed" to be happening in your practice, you have to feel it for yourself.

it's an interesting question, though, and what chenzen was asking in the beginning of the thread.

[xing_jian108]

Originally posted by zachsan
how is simply trusting whatever your master says any different than taking as truth on tradition? because it's relayed to you verbally by your master, rather than read by you in a book, you should believe it?

I mean trusting your masters words and putting them to test to find out for sure. Not just trusting what he says is true and using his words as proof. Like "it's true cuz my master said so". But actually testing it and proving that way. "I trusted my masters words, I put them to test and it has proven to work".

Qi in Chinese means air or some kind of gas. Together with Kong, Kong Qi means the air in the sky. The air we must breathe to stay alive. It's oxygen, Yang Qi. Oxygen is in our blood. It flows through our body. Without air, our body turns blue, because the oxygen in the blood is not flowing to the whole body. That shows oxygen is in our body. That is part of Qi. When we use our mind to control Qi in our body it gathers in the place we direct it. It is first just air we breathe. Then the mixed with blood as a liquid. When we focus it at a certain area of the body it will gather and become harder. Not harder like a rock, but hard meaning if your arms are crushed under weight where you are focussing Qi, the arm will of course be squeezed but no harm will be done. Because it is being proctected by the gather Qi/oxygen/air in the blood at that certain area. So, it doesn't become solid like a rock or a chair or a book. But if works like a barrier to cover that part of the body, keeping harm from it. This is what happens to the throat. The Qi is blocking the spear from pushing through the skin and into the throat.

That's the explaination. I don't know how they would track oxygen in the blood. I'm no doctor of any kind. But this is a way to show it. You can't really feel much on the outside. But the person doing it can feel what is happening on the inside. That's why the only proof right now is the feeling you get from practicing it.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[zachsan]

those are more empirical claims. again, demonstrate them in a controlled environment and you will be a millionaire.

[dogchow108]

I think that looking for scientific proof of Qi is like looking for scientific proof of a Deity. You can look at everyday things and just say "Hey, look, how can you not believe in god when everything he created is right before your eyes?" as you walk in a park, or say "Hey, you see, the heat-sensor is picking up the heat caused by the Qi" as you measure heat from a warm-blooded animal.

My opinion on the whole thing is that at this point, Qi exists based on what you want it to be. With all respect to ancient Chinese philosophy, some of which has influenced me to the very core of my being, but i'll believe in something like Qi when Eastern ideas start pulling the West out of the stone age instead of the opposite.

No offence, guys, but while i practice Chinese martial arts, fully aware of the Qi concepts which have undobtably shaped their evolution, i attribute placebo to much of the idea of "Qi" as a specific cosmic force more than anything else. I think that if you are willing to argue that chambering a kick makes it more powerful than perhaps, oh, a weak-looking kick in one of ZLP's videos then theres a chance you probably agree with this more than you let on.


But hell, you never know right? there is no way of scientifically PROVING anything, only failing to falsify a hypothesis.

[zachsan]

I think that looking for scientific proof of Qi is like looking for scientific proof of a Deity.

well it's a bit different, depending on one's definition of qi. if someone believes in qi as a nonphysical force that doesn't directly affect objects, but animates living things and all that, then that's a metaphysical claim, meaning it is not empirical in nature and is outside the realm of scientific investigation, just like a deity. since god is not an empirical entity, science can neither prove nor disprove his existence.

if, on the other hand, you believe that qi energy is a physical force and that it has the ability to directly affect physical objects, or that a guy in arizona is actually god and is omnipotent, then those are empirical claims and can be proven. you can prove that qi can knock over a guy from five feet away, and you can prove that this guy in arizona can turn me into a chicken or create life from nothing.

you can't really disprove either, but no reasonable person will worship the guy in arizona just because they can't prove that he's not god. unfortunately however, some people would.

But hell, you never know right? there is no way of scientifically PROVING anything, only failing to falsify a hypothesis.

i know you mean this in a philosophical sense, but i would ask what you mean what you refer to proof. if you really consider proof to be something that is eternally out of reach, then all you are really saying is "there is no such thing as proof, so things cannot be proven". basically you're just turning it into a useless word.

[dogchow108]

Well, Zachsan, Proof IS a useless word, at least in science. Proof in the sense of an idea becoming a truth. In my opinion, proof is more of a spiritual and philosophical word than it is scientific. Show me an article in a scientific Journal, like Genetics, Animal Behavior, Behavioral Ecology, Evolution, etc. that uses this word to describe a process in the experiment. In fact, hell, find the word to begin with. I've damn well read my fair share of original scientific work, and i would be hard-pressed to find a modern scientific article that says it's proven something.

trust me, I'm sitting here right now typing up 3 seperate formal lab reports in which i am GUARANTEED an "F" if i use that theological word.

[zachsan]

Well, Zachsan, Proof IS a useless word, at least in science. Proof in the sense of an idea becoming a truth.

i agree, and that's not the sense that i refer to when i talk about proof, but rather i am referring to proof in the practical sense. science, like district attorneys, can and needs to prove things in the practical sense, even if that "proof" literally is only a reasoned and useful provisional conclusion or hypothesis.

what i try to do when i post on these boards (usually, before i start to get upset) is make what is a foreign concept to a lot of people (science) seem less mysterious. i think you will find that is very hard to do while remaining 100% literal.

[dogchow108]

No kidding....and actually we really need more people like that in places like these.

Not too many, mind you, as i still do enjoy being kind of a white poser-type who is interested in "exotic" foreign cultures...

[Greenknight2]

Interesting thread.. indeed

Just curious would repeated hitting something such as a metal bar across your head, make the bones stronger? Would it damage the brain any?

One thing that's interesting is the that a Tai Chi master can be immovable. How they do that? Is that just focus? Or how about blowing out candles by striking near them?