effect of directing the qi

[xing_jian108]

You need not believe in Qi to believe Qi Gong practice has health benefits. All this means is that you believe the physical practice of the excersize is what gives the benefits and not this thing we call "Qi". So, it's not really contradictory in that sense.

It seems common sense that the physical practice of Qi Gong will have benefits on your health. Any physical excersize will have positive effects on your body, with the exception of some creative examples and circumstances you may come up with. But I think we would all agree, especially a physical excersize that is obviously meant for health will have health benefits.

The difference is, some people think that is as far as the benefits go, while others believe health benefits come from not only the physical excersize but also the effects of what we call "Qi". Then you go into the idea of Qi being used for more than health benefits, but if these people aren't with us on the health benefit of Qi, then it's useless to go into more things such as martial offense and defense use of Qi. It doesn't matter for this discussion what people use it for. We must start from the beginning and show scientific proof of the existence of Qi and not only the health benefits, which could be from the Qi or the physical excersize, as anyone practicing Qi Gong may not do it for martial use but still have health benefits anyway. This is the basic concept we need to prove to them before explaining why and how we can use Qi, once they agree with the existence, for health benefits and martial application.

Peace out...

[zachsan]

why xingjian, you've almost got it.

you're only incorrect in that we need to first scientifically establish the existence of qi. qi is a metaphysical concept and such a thing is impossible. instead, one should concern themselves with proving that qigong can give them extraordinary abilities, which might be useful in martial applications. or, for that matter, that martial artists who practice qigong are better at defending themselves than other martial artists who do not. these are accepted as basic truths of a lot of oriental martial arts, but there is little evidence to this effect.

[xing_jian108]

I don't think we can say a martial artist who practices Qi Gong is better at defending himself than a martial artist who does not. Defending oneself takes defensive skills. The name of the game is to not get hit. Qi Gong practice doesn't teach you to block attacks better.

But if you want proof that a martial artist practicing Qi Gong can give and take more powerful blows than a martial artist not practicing Qi Gong, take a look at those who can break spears on their throats, or balance themselves on their stomach on a giant metal spear tip and spin around in circles. People who can take direct strikes to their throats. People who can have wooden sticks broken across their throats. People who can do one finger handstands. The only people I have ever seen even try these things are those who practice Qi Gong. There are people who can break sticks and bricks over themselves without the use of Qi Gong, but to go even further than that, they haven't even tried. Only those who practice Qi Gong have had enough confidence to do something like that.

As far as giving stronger blows, I think Shi Yan Ming has demostrated many times before. He isn't the biggest guy you know? But how many can deliver a stronger punch or kick than him? A big part of it is technique of the strike, but to go further than technique and body mass, it takes Qi Gong practice. For his body size, I don't know who for their body size can hit as hard. I think if you ask him about his use of Qi Gong in his attacks he will surely tell you it's an important part.

[zachsan]

there are aikido practitioners who believe that cultivating ki energy can make them more reactive to someone's attacks, before they're touched. they very much believe that their ki exercises make them able to block or avoid attacks better.

as for the rest of your post, i have used my supernatural abilities to send my reply back in time. in fact, you can find it earlier in this very thread. remarkable, no?

also, to elaborate on that response, i should say that those feats that you mention, while remarkable, do not have much of a martial application ("hold on! put that knife away a second; i am going to bend some spears on my throat and do a one-finger handstand"). so my argument about the danger of overestimating your abilities, due to qigong, in a real-life self-defense situation, still applies. and as if i needed to reiterate this, such feats do not provide any evidence for the existence of qi.

[Blue Sky]

Chi power -

To give yourself a feeling of how Chi can give you 'supernatural' abilities, first hold your arm as straight as you can. Have someone else exert a constantly increasing force on your elbow until your arm bends. Now, hold your arm straight out and imagine it to be a very high powered water hose, with water shooting out of your fingers at such a force that it keeps your arm straight. Like a firehose tends to straighten itself. Don't think about keeping you elbow straight - just think about the water flowing thru your arm holding it straight. Your friend will not be able to bend your arm with the same amount of force. If you feel this, the 'water' you are controlling is actually your Chi.
Anyone experience the effect?

[andrewr47]

what blue sky is saying is actually demonstratable, which i have yet to try. To go alone his lines, use some machine (or any non-human object that can exert a force, because human force an be varied and biased).

for example, similarly, i guess we can use our legs in my example. isntead of imagining your arm is a hose shooting out water, imagine that with ur leg. as a control, straighten out one leg and place a constant weight on that leg until it just bends. now use blue sky's method and imagining that water is shooting out of ur leg and then place that same weight on ur leg. if that weight (or even heavier weights) cannot bend ur leg this time, then blue sky's method would be working (albeit it still does not physically provide evidence of qi but at least it is demonstratable and gives support of such notion). of course, u can't condition ur leg so much that ur leg gets muscular enough the second time u put the weights on.

let me know if this is logical or not.

[arhat]

it may be demonstrable...

...but it's not evidence of chi, it's a parlor trick.

Unbendable Arm Explained
by Stephen J. Goodson
The need for skeptical thinking is present in every pursuit and area of study. This need is not necessarily due to some inherent desire for man to defraud other men, but due to man's ability to deceive himself. The Buddhists warn of self-delusion, the Taoists speak of polishing the vision, and the skeptics say..."Let me see that again."

As a teenager, I attended a martial arts class in which one of the senior students asked for a volunteer for a special demonstration. I was volunteered. The senior asked me to hold out my arm, make a fist, and use all my strength to keep him from bending my arm. I followed his instructions. Facing me, he slipped his shoulder under my wrist, placed his forearm perpendicular and on top of my arm at the elbow crease, his other hand grabbing his wrist. He reiterated that I was to use all my muscle and strength to keep him from bending my arm. I assured him I was fully committed to the task. He then slowly pushed down on my arm and bent it. My normal recourse would have been to challenge him again at the task, but he had already suggested a change in roles. I obliged and we changed positions. On my attempt, I easily bent his arm. I felt better.

Then he said he would use a special ,energy," developed from many years of arduous practice of his martial art, to keep me from bending his arm. He continued, saying that this "energy" was so powerful that he could foil my attempts with his arm completely relaxed.

This time, when I attempted to bend his arm, it was to no avail. His arm-no, his entire body-was relaxed and showed no signs of strain! I tried again, as he showed that his biceps were soft and completely relaxed. He was snapping his fingers and waving his hand. (Remember, I was prying down with vigor on the elbow attached to that hand.)

In awe, my questions came. He shushed me and offered me the "secret." He told me that the power he used was "life energy," and that it was developed through years of special mental and physical training (I must have annoyed him because I kept comparing his arm to mine-mine was bigger!). He told me I was short-sighted and that I must "look beyond the obvious." Then he directed me to raise and relax my arm and look in the direction it was pointing, "at a point on the wall and beyond." I was to feel my connection with the earth through my feet and legs, then relax my body and mind and extend my mind and "energy" toward that point on the horizon, reaching for it. As I did this, he slipped his shoulder under my arm and began trying to bend my arm. Exerting himself fully, he could not bend my "energized" arm. My background in sports, he said, had developed my C(energy" a little, and my performance was more successful than others because of it.

On my next attempt to do the unbendable arm, I was able to project my "energy" so well that he had a classmate hang from my "energized" arm, swinging with both feet off the ground.* Through this relaxed use of "energy," my strength had quadrupled in a matter of minutes! The senior said his martial art was based on this kind of "energetic" strength, and that only through careful tutelage under a competent "Master" would one be able to manifest this strength through one's entire body and to use that "energy" against an opponent. The student would have to be of high moral character because of the obvious lethality of the art. I left that evening impressed by the demonstrative use of "life energy."

Now there is the conundrum: is this really a physical test that proves the existence of a special "life energy?" The test is quite powerful, and if you have never experienced it, I suggest you grab a partner and give it a whirl before reading the rest of the story.

As the years have passed, I have duplicated this test many times with others. I have also witnessed the test demonstrated by others as examples of Ki / Chi energy, results of positive thinking, the power of Neuro-Linguistic Programming, etc. The demonstrations vary slightly, but the results are always the same-an impressive increase of strength through the use of this technique.

The explanation of the unbendable arm is that it is not a feat of "energetics," but of mere physical strength, albeit proper use of strength. When the demonstrator first introduces unbendable arm, you are asked to "make a fist" and/or "use all of your muscle" to keep your arm from being bent. You do this by tightening the "big-bellied" muscles of the arm-the biceps specifically. When the demonstrator applies pressure to your arm, it bends because the muscles you have engaged are not the muscles needed to resist the pressure on your arm but are, in fact, the exact muscles that move your arm in the same direction as his pressure, i.e. the biceps bend the arm.

Now don't think that hypnosis or suggestibility are at work here, for they are not. What is at work here is your unfamiliarity with the task at hand and the directive to "use all of your muscle." These conditions, which seem reasonable when first presented, set you up to use the wrong muscles. Once engaged, you fail the task due to improper use of your strength.

When you are "told the secret," you are directed to open your hand and relax and to extend your energy. This is the correct set-up for the proper use of strength because it is in extending your arm that you engage your triceps muscles. Your arm cannot be bent because you are able to use the triceps muscles that extend your arm. This is the proper use of strength for the task.

The method to keep someone from bending your arm in this exercise is correct and is most impressive, but the explanation of "life energy" (or any other explanation besides the use of the triceps) is wrong.

Knowing the real secret of the unbendable arm has been very helpful to me in examining the mechanics of other martial art techniques-throws, locks, punches, pushes, etc. It has also helped me to steer clear of the "Masters" who have other tricks that lead students far off the path. In other words, do not discount a method merely because it is incorrectly explained, but beware.


* Kim Holburn prompted this pendant to the original article: To clarify, I was in the original two person setup; that is, my wrist was supported on the shoulder of another person. The 'swinger' was a third person introduced into the set up. Sorry for the confusion.

First published in the Skeptical Eye Vol. 8, No. 4 1995
©Stephen J. Goodson

[andrewr47]

i highly doubt that anyone would exert his biceps when told to resist his arm being bent. Whether you know where ur biceps are or not, u'd naturally be using ur triceps when told to resist ur arm being bent.

this article points to an unconvincing "parlor trick". (by this i dont mean there is Qi involved either, just that the trick itself is kinda weak to deceive others). If the author was so gullible as to use his biceps, it would be a matter of lack of common sense rather than a parlor trick.

i'd actually want to see some real parlor tricks the monks use to deceive people, ie, stuff magicians use or something like that, not mere trickery with words.

[LeiYunFat]

What are you talking about? If you go to any gym, the most muscle workout you would see is pectoral (chest) and bicep (arm).

If you tell someone to flex, they will flex their bicep, because it is a very easily shown and impressive muscle. Plus I tried it, it is hard for me to just flex my tricep while I hold out my arm.

Anyway, most people associate bicep with total arm strength. Hell, some people even associate bicep with total body strength. It's not uncommon that anyone would flex their Bicep when told to resist arm movement.

[andrewr47]

What are you talking about? If you go to any gym, the most muscle workout you would see is pectoral (chest) and bicep (arm).

well yea... but the anecdote posted wasn't talking about some general muscle workout

If you tell someone to flex, they will flex their bicep, because it is a very easily shown and impressive muscle. Plus I tried it, it is hard for me to just flex my tricep while I hold out my arm.

if i told u to straighten out ur arm while i try to bend it at the elbows and u are to resist my bending ur elbow, u will instead flex ur biceps for me? it may be hard to flex ur triceps when no one is pushing on ur elbows but when they are, it is NOT hard to flex ur triceps. when u are doing pushups, do u know that u're flexing ur triceps? why? because uare trying to STRAIGHTEN ur arm out while resisting ur body's weight trying to bend it. same principles. biceps/triceps are antagonistic muscles, biceps bend ur arm and triceps straighten it out.

Anyway, most people associate bicep with total arm strength. Hell, some people even associate bicep with total body strength. It's not uncommon that anyone would flex their Bicep when told to resist arm movement.

if they do, then i must say they either haven't done pull-ups before or dont know where their biceps are and what they're used for. if i asked u to show me how strong u are, would u rather show me how much bench press u can do or would u show me how much curls u can do? which do u think people will be more impressed with?

anyways , ur point basically says that the author in that anecdote was just not smart enough to know biceps from triceps and bending his arm from straightening his arm, because it is normal for the avg adult to be ignorant of such things and that the shaolin monks are taking advantage of such ignorance to produce their 'parlor tricks.'

we'll let others be the judge

[xing_jian108]

and as if i needed to reiterate this, such feats do not provide any evidence for the existence of qi.

Didn't you say we aren't looking to prove existence of Qi, but just that someone practicing Qi Gong is better at defending themselves than someone who doesn't practice it??

Being able to have things broken over your body at different areas and being able to resist the pierce of a spear would most certainly help you defend yourself better. Not that you are more able to block an attack with a wooden stick or something, but your body is in a much better shape to be able to resist the effects of being hit by it. We can only practice so much in Iron Body. But with the use of Qi Gong people have gone beyond the normal limit and are able to take more powerful blows with no harm done. If you can do this I think that gives you a better chance at fighting back against someone, even with a wooden stick as a weapon. So, there's your proof of that. I haven't seen people who don't practice Qi Gong be able to perform these things or even try. If in a real attack situation they were hit with a wooden stick it may hurt them quite a bit and they'd be in big trouble. With a Qi Gong practicioners ability to resist them, they have a much better chance at taking the blow with little damage and then fight back. Yes?... Yes.

[LeiYunFat]

i highly doubt that anyone would exert his biceps when told to resist his arm being bent. Whether you know where ur biceps are or not, u'd naturally be using ur triceps when told to resist ur arm being bent.

What I was saying was that everyone knows where the bicep is. Most people will flex their bicep while resisting arm movement.

And by your last post, I hope you weren't talking to me because that was not my point, at all. It was not even in my mind while tryping it.

And as for pushups, it varies on how far your arms are, where, and how low you are going. You could work everything out from pecs to fingers.

The comment you made about people not knowing what to use the bicep for is crazy. People know what it's for-- they just don't think about it. The stereotype of the big bicep is one that depicts a strong man who can resist anything. People are most impresed with a large bicep, if you just pull up your shirt and show them.

Anyways, the point is that average people WILL flex their bicep when told to resist arm movement.

[andrewr47]

With a Qi Gong practicioners ability to resist them, they have a much better chance at taking the blow with little damage and then fight back. Yes?... Yes.

xing jian: naturally i agree with you. but i know zachsan wouldn't because he'll say that you can't prove it is the QI in the Qi Gong practitioners that is making them resist the pain, EVEN THOUGH only Qi Gong practitioners can resist the pain. am i correct zachsan?

the logic is like this:
1. normal people = no qi = pain
2. qi gong masters = qi = no pain (?)
3. qi gong masters = "some other stuff that normal ppl dont have" = no pain (?)

therefore, u have to prove that it is Qi that is making u resist the pain and not "some other stuff that normal ppl dont have". u'll have to prove the distinction between 2 and 3.

[dogchow108]

Andrew- I'm sorry that my sarcasm caused you to get your panties up in a bunch. We're all jokers here like thatand you'll have to forgive us
And since it was mentioned with such gravity, i worship no one and nothing. But you seem to be halfway in tune with me with some of what you said; i always say that the only way you can prove whether or not god exists is if he does.

Moving on- i read the abstracts you linked and they were, in fact, interesting. The most interesting thing about them was that they did not compare the results of Qigong practice with any other type of aerobic excercize. I imagine this would be a problem for the authors, because if they did do this, a comparison with the kind of results I would expect would show that sit-ups are as healty for you as swimming is as healthy for you as Qigong- except maybe the first two would be healthier.
Another interesting thing was this snippet from the last article, which is really exactly what i would expect:
" Therefore, our findings suggest that in clinical practice of cancer treatment Qigong therapy in combination with conventional therapy (such as chemotherapy) is a treatment regimen worth recommending."

Even these "doctors" dont have the nerve to try to treat cancer with Qigong alone. Still, there is a method of sneakiness here. You take something with little or not proof as to its uniqueness as a healing method- beyond the kind of stuff a physical therapist can do- and recommend it as a healing device along with chemotherapy. Now, honestly, i am not even going to get into why this is ridiculous (and, in my opinion, unethical)- i feel that this abstract speaks for itself.

anyway, going into the more philosophical stuff...

I agree that QiGong practice may have health benefits. I practice QiGong. But there are certain things that should be taken into consideration.
1- QiGong practice, in its being named as such, is by no means proof or even evidence of Qi. The example given with holding the arm out and imagining the water hose was, and i mean no offense to the poster by this, absolutely laughable. Even if you managed to hold out the second time, you still have absolutely no grounds upon which to claim an act of Qi direction. while you can talk about Qi, you can actually demonstrate mechanics with numbers- in exactly the same way that you can talk about t-lymphocytes all damn day, and still have not a scrap of evidence of Qi. Although the METHOD can be useable, the premise of cosmic energy is still a placebo. Am I making any sense?

2- building on number 1. as i said, observing changes that you see during Qigong practice is fair game. However, you still have no Qi in a box or in a picture to show me that Qi exists, much less plays an active role in the events described. Attributing Qi to effects of "directing the Qi" has more holes in it than a footsoldier in Normandy. In Chemotherapy, however, you knowingly use a set of chemicals with a generally predictable effect. All you have with Qi is a claim. You can hold a sample of the stuff you use in chemotherapy, and with a great deal of confidence say it is the stuff you use for Chemotherapy. On the other hand, you can walk into a master's school, point at him doing QiGong and say "Qi" with all the logical authority of pointing to a couch and saying "dildo". The dildo may be on the couch, lost between the pillows somewhere. except you can actually see, measure, test and record data on the dildo and its use, giving the more sarcastic part of this comment more weight than the serious part.

Conclusions:

-QiGong practice may produce effects generally definable as beneficial.
-There is a defined entity that you are using in Chemotherapy- chemicals.
-There is an UNdefined*, untestable entity that you claim is at work in QiGong ("Qi").
-There is a definable entity called a dildo.

*lacking a means by which to show it is present


Therefore

-One can conclude that there is something about QiGong that is good for you.
-One can conclude the same about Chemotherapy
-The foundational concept behind QiGong is working your Qi, thus assuming there is such a thing
-A debate as to whether Qi exists or not is essential and unavoidable in this topic.
-someone writing a "scientific" paper on QiGong may want to recommend it as a healing device for cancer patients- along with something "conventional".
-the latter is true because the doctor knows his arguement for Qi is flimsy at best.

please, do read between the lines with these "scientific papers". much of this is right there in front of your eyes.

Xing-Jian, give these guys a sharpened spear next time you see them do the throat trick. While you're at it, tell the guy in the crowd to actually thrust the spear into the guys throat- something more likely to happen in a confrontation.

Anyway, i might have more to say later (i always do...) but suffice to sum it up as follows-

The plainest way i can see this is that a method successfully working on abstract principles does not mean that the principles are in fact true or real.

Likewise, while Qigong has its benefits, it is a fallacy of logic to attribute something unmeasureable and untestable to it. observing an increase or decrease in a measurable parameter is one thing. seeing it come about as a result of an introduced factor is a whole different story.

anyway, i think ive made it plain enough. hack away!

[andrewr47]

im not as half serious as u think =p but im a Christian so i dont mess around with sarcasm related to my beliefs.

anyhow, there's nothing to hack away in ur post since u agree with the same thing i agree with (see my last post). I provided links to the NIH sites just to show that qigong exercises have a health benefit and i wasn't advocating the existence of qi in any sense.

back to ur dildo example: if somehow the dildo was invisible and was sticking out in between the pillows and i sit on it and feel it up my ass, but i have no way of showing the existence of the dildo other than to say that it's up my ass, does it mean the dildo exists or doesn't exist? i can show u the result of the dildo on my butthole but that's about it.

another example: we can imply and theorize that light travels in both waves and particles from intereference and photon experiments. However, we obviously don't physically see light traveling in particles. Does it mean light doesn't travel in particles just be cause we can't physically measure it but only can imply from it?

what im trying to say is that u dont have to prove directly for something to exist. im not saying qi exists either so dont bash me

if qigong exericses produce health benefits, there must be SOMETHING that is providing the health benefits. maybe some people call it QI, but others call it immune system. QI may be some elements of the body that we already know that exists but is just another term other people use. it doesn't have to be a distinct entity. maybe the act of qigong just activates the many precursor T cells in the thymus to proliferate into mature CD4 cells. that can very well be a possibility.

and as for spear bending, its not shown wehther it's Qi or not since we dont even know what Qi is. however, IF the act wasn't a parlor trick, then there must be something that is making them bend the spear; but again, it doesn't have to be Qi per se.