Wong Kiew Kit

[Omar]

This is my first post, so before I respond, I'd like to say Hi. I've enjoyed reading this site now and then for a couple of years, and there is much great info here, especially enjoyed the pictures from China after the recent site reamp, those were great. Also there are sone real masters of sarcasm here, although not always sharing some of the posters views, they have me howling from laughter. Hopefully I can draw some out off the woodwork..

Now, I could just say "reread Fleur's posts" and make perfect sense, but since you asked for others, here I am, another fresh WahNam student into the "lions den".

Why I study with Sifu?
A) Because he is the best teacher I've found, and do not need to search anymore, and also:
B) He accepted to teach me.

I found out about Sifu the way most people do nowadays, the internet. Then after reading some of his books, and through my own experience both prior and after applying his instructions to practise, found it to be what I was missing, and more. That is just from a book, wich everyone here with experience in chi kung/martial arts knows; A book or video no matter how good, cannot compare to a living teacher and partners.
So I went to see Sifu in Malaysia eventually.

Many of you have slandered his announced fees, and there have for a long time been available information on the fees on Sifus website, and still is. Personally I find his prices ridicilously cheap. This is a perspective issue. I bet I have now gotten the label "raving cultist" stamped on myself in some of your minds by now!

Ellaborating a bit more on this, let us compare. Take the current price for a intensive course with Sifu in Malaysia. What can you get for the same sum of money? For those lucky enough to live in a wealthy country for example:
A year or mores supply with Coca Cola, depending on your drinking intensity. A nice plasma screen TV. A couple of hundred DVD movies.
Personally my flight cost to Malaysia was higher then Sifu's fee.

However, you cant shop Shaolin skills with money only. You have to be accepted, and practise correctly and consistently yourself afterwards for months, years.

And these arts are not taught from rules guided by Adam Smith's "supply and demand" metaphor, A master could in the past, and can still ask any fee he/she finds suitable, then it is up to anyone if they are willing to pay. No one is getting forced. In my oppinion, if you like me are from the west, the more you pay the better, it will help kill lazyness in the initial self practise.

Even comparing those examples to the seeded abilities for living a healtiher, happier life, self defence and for those wishing, spiritual growth, I find ridicilous.
Again, this is a perspective issue, people have different goals and priorities in life.

Have to add though, you dont become a taoist immortal levitating home in the lotus position after a course with Sifu. But you get a impressively good foundation transmitted to yourself if you are a good student, up to you to build on. Just like you dont get a medical degree by skimming through your books and practical sessions. How high you can build from there, are like most in your life, limitied only by your own mind.

Speaking of mind, I've read some sceptical posts here about "supenatural" abilities. What are supernatural? Just the unknown. For many chi is also unknown to the councious mind. However, one must be healthily sceptical, never ever accept anything on words alone from anyone blindly, but then again, one cannot ignore direct experience.

Personally I am more certain that Sifu and other people have such abilities then I am in the existance of say the planet Jupiter! (Now this is prime sarcasm bait if I ever saw it).

How do I make such a seemingly completely irrational claim?
Throughout my years of school I as everyone else, learned about the planets. We were shown pictures, movies, and some nights the planets are also visible in the night sky, by telescope or our eyes.

However, I have never stood on Jupiters surface, or flown past it in a spacecraft. I have, however, directly experienced chi generated by my own mind through training, and transmitted to me from a few people, including Sifu. I have also experienced Sifu gently poke my abdomen with a punch, even though he stood meters away. Immediately after there was a smile, and a handmovement saying "move aside" as he was demonstrating techniques.

And, like Fleur has previously written, Sifu does not lie. Even though he would probably come across as more "sensible" to many people of he did not speak about everything so openly.

It would probably give him "more recognition" in certain circles if he kept more things secret, rather then ellaborate openly on from todays established standards, "outlandish" topics such as distant chi transmission, playing with clouds, cosmic conciousness and supreme reality to point out a few.

Quite a wall of tekst, but I had a free moment now this saturday. If it yields some biting sarcastic remarks, it was worth it, I enjoy those. If it helps someone make up their minds one or the other way even better.
At least I hope it resulted in someone smiling, be it overbearingly while shaking their head or otherwise.

[onesp1ng]

so you just stick by them and that's that -- there's no room for discussion?

sifu joan brown says she was taught at a local gym, and knew, upon reading a book by WKK, that his teachings were different....

anyone else? why WKK?

[Fleur]

I find it really bizarre that you guys have such a problem with our basic stance of loyalty, principle and respect. As far as I know, these are generally considered worthwhile qualities in kung fu culture, not to mention, ‘life’. I’m sure you’d be quick to draw your own conclusions if we remained silent, yet our replies have been taken as evidence of ‘cult like behaviour’, ‘a kiss arse attitude’ etc etc.

I won’t say too much about Biotics’ commentary on the Ireland courses, as I wasn’t there, but I hope people can at least see the inconsistencies in his posts. For example, the suggestion that he was invited to host a course for my Sifu during the very same conversation in which he apparently claimed Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung was ineffective, and asked for a refund… are you kidding?

I would like to reply to this, though:

Joan Browne most certainly is not a Sifu (in what might I add?) nor is Marcus Santer

They are Sifus, Biotics. That is unarguable. The issue at hand is your assessment of their credentials. And this is where my real problem with you lies. You see, people can form their own assessment of Sifu Marcus and Sifu Joan, by reading their posts on the Shaolin Wahnam Forum (their user names are ‘Marcus’ and ‘Joan’) or looking at the various articles, photos and videos on their respective websites. Sifu Joan has written a very clear account of her early development in the Shaolin Arts, on another thread here. http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread....4047#post34047

And you? We don’t know your skill level, your experience, where you’re from, even your name. All we know is that you’ve been training gong fu (which style?) for two years, and that your teacher (who?) was, ‘very good’. Of course you’re perfectly entitled to keep this information to yourself, but imo it gives your arguments much less weight.

I’ve trained with both Sifu Joan (chi kung) and Sifu Marcus (chi kung and kung fu) and they are both wonderful instructors, living examples of the arts they are transmitting. As well as having excellent teaching skills, they have both been very kind and generous to me personally; they have shown ‘good character’ - the most important of the criteria for an instructor/Sifu we apply in Shaolin Wahnam.

For anyone interested, here’s a summary of our criteria. Good masters should:

• have a reasonably high standard in the art they teach (at least one, and usually several levels above their students)
• have a good understanding of the scope and depth of their art
• be systematic and generous in their teaching
• be able to provide remedial exercise or medical treatment
• hold, and practice, high moral values

I could go on, but the proof is in the hundreds of students who have reaped the benefits of good health, emotional balance and combat efficiency, from practicing the Shaolin arts under the guidance of these two Sifus over the past few years.

Best wishes,


Fleur
Shaolin Wahnam UK

[onesp1ng]

Do yourself a favor and meet other teachers with an open mind as I did then decide for yourself.

which leads us....here.

seriously, would anyone be willing to talk about the other teachers they've known before meeting WKK?
...........

great advice, btw..........

[biotics]

Firstly, I do believe there was about 200 people there as it was Wong Kiew Kit actually instructing. It was in a sports hall at a school. There was more than one course. It occurred over a period of 3 days. So I should imagine the bulk of the people there were on the short course and therefore eating at the restaurant did not apply to those people.

I'm going to reiterate: I did not get a refund. I tried to but Joan said she couldn't give me a refund and took me upstairs (the sports hall) to learn the lifting the sky Chi Kung exercise which I had already learnt the first day. That was the compensation. I felt so guilty as my teacher teaches Kung fu & Chi kung for free each Friday evening for 3 hours. The only money that is spent is to buy equipment. That is a real Buddhist attitude I feel. I will not deny that deep breathing is beneficial. By all means, do Chi Kung.

This "jealously guarded secrets" lark may of been the case just after the war but Chinese have been accepting western students for quite a while now. I notice you have not picked up on my comments on the authenticity of your teachers rank as "Sifu". This is an ego trip. Joan Browne most certainly is not a Sifu (in what might I add?) nor is Marcus Santer. "Having him accept an invitation and teach in a country is a great honour for all of the organisers." This kiss arse attitude would I should imagine be frowned upon by most authentic masters. In my experience it always has. That's not to say I'm implying one should not be respectful or grateful but the way you lot carry on sounds like Jim Jones' Jonestown could happen again. I remember attending a Kung Fu lesson and at the end of the lesson the teacher just walked without saying goodbye to anyone. "By virtue of this fact you were never asked, it is not the policy." As yes, since I had travelled a fair distance to attend the course and by the second day I wanted out of the course I had an oppotunity to talk with Joan. It had arisen that due to where I was situated at that time it was a possibility to arrange a seminar with Wong Kiew Kit as no one was doing it there. Invitation or whatever gloss you want to put on it does not change the nature of it.
Do yourself a favor and meet other teachers with an open mind as I did then decide for yourself.

[onesp1ng]

better still, can he prove it? or do we just take his word for it?

[master-lu]

Ahh the beef is on!!! To the wahnam students, do you believe your master has these cancer curing abilities? You must admit it's a very interesting claim.

[doc]

I'll get the ARCHIVE back up and running. If I remember correctly, it was a little more involved than three posts.

But first, I have to get russboTV finished....

[master splinter]

lol,

this is getting good.

[Markus]

(delete this)

[Markus]

(delete this)

[Markus]

Greetings.



This will be a short post to shed light to some of the points being raised. Bear in mind that me, or the Shaolin Wahnam students who have posted here, have no intentions of trying to win anybody over. Many of you clearly have wildly different ideas about traditional martial and internal arts than we do, and we're happy to leave you to pursue your own path in the way you see best.

However, when inaccurate and misleading information is spread publicly about our school or our Sifus, it is only reasonable and responsible of us to step up and correct what's being said. Biotics' posts are an example of spreading incorrect information. Here's a few more things to address:



Doc said:
“In fact, many years ago, he and I had a discussion about his cancer cure claims. We had a running dialog for a while, in the forum ARCHIVE, in which we debated his abilities. He eventually bowed out after he could not properly answer my ‘medically scientific’ questions."

To my best knowledge - as confirmed by my Sifu (Wong) - here's how it went: Sifu Wong was informed by his student that Doc would like to have a discussion with him at Russbo, in a thread reserved for the two of them. Sifu agreed, and replied immediately to Doc's long opening post, to which Doc did not respond. After many months he posted to say that he had been away, but did not raise any issues nor asked any questions. So there were only three posts: Doc's original long post, Sifu's reply to all his points, and Doc's short "apology".

Hence, Doc's statements that "we had a running dialog", that "we debated his abilities", that Sifu Wong "bowed out" and that Doc raised "medically scientific questions" are untrue.

But I do hope that the archives are revived unedited, just as Doc promised - it's all there to see.



"Anytime you deal with organizations or groups that exhibit cult like behavior, their members can act in ways that are protective of their group."

Doc, if your definition for the word 'cult' is "an organization that emphasizes tolerance, personal choice and freedom of religion", then you may have a point in referring to our school as "cult-like". Otherwise, I would suggest for you to check your dictionary and, more importantly, check your facts.



Best luck with your practice,

Markus Kahila
Shaolin Wahnam

[onesp1ng]

i was going with facetious on that last one -- playing devils advocate.

it's always interesting to see how similar tendencies are protrayed...from group to group...which isn't to suggest that this last poster was any different from, hmmm, let's say....dan of wkk, by any means.

wow, well what do you know!!....

[doc]

Anytime you deal with organizations or groups that exhibit cult like behavior, their members can act in ways that are protective of their group. There is a thread in the Fugue section on Cults. I suggest that you read it. This will make more sense...

[onesp1ng]

i agree doc. after reading that thread you may be inclined to NOT believe WKK, by virture of his own words.

but regardless, why do these wkk people always come across so....so....well, lawyer-like?