Wong Kiew Kit

[arhat]

I also find this somewhat troubling...

"Sifu is passing on exactly what us students need to know, at every step of the way, with much care and attention. Sifu only teaches us what he already knows well and can demonstrate with ease..."

Jordan I submit to you that you don't know any of this to say one way or the other. How do you know *exactly* what you need to know, except that "Sifu" Dan tells you what you need to know, and since he is presenting himself to you as "Sifu" how else or why should you question what you are being taught. That word sets up a matrix of transmission. If you were taught by a real master you might see the difference. How do you know what he knows well or not well, in comparison to other masters, since you yourself are a student?

[wooden dummy]

Oh fer Christ's sake, this is getting so silly.

Look, it's just a word, okay?

He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that. Can we get on with talking about something that might actually be important or interesting, instead of arguing about the exact, precise significance and connotations of using one stupid word?

[prajna]

Agreed.

[Maestro]

course

of course you want to get off that subject

i would to if the place i trained at was under scrutiny

its interesting to me the only reason the wahnamites seem to want to join our community is to defend wkk

because really thats what this all comes down to..wkk and his lackeys were getting trashed..big time over here, and its no surprise since they give us more then enough ammunition

the point is this..these people come out of nowhere..so obviously wahnamites are watching what we do

they probably saw the high amount of peeps coming and going from the site and they figured theyd set things straight..

of course theres only one problem...

wkk is a fraud

pure and simple

i dont care what kind of chi flow you think your achieving or you are achieving or whatever

shaolin monks/disciples/laymen chan buddhists..etc all have one thing in common..they aspire to achieve a level of spiritual understanding that is above anything else in this world..mundane things have no place in the hearts and minds of true "wise men"

and when wkk claims to be not only a zen master..a shaolin grandmaster..a chi kung master..a taijijuan master..bla bla bla bla bla..

when he claims these things..and when he says the things he says..and does the things he does

i know, id never..ever, want to learn any sort of chan..kung fu..chi kung..or even see his ugly mug..ever

because hes just so simply wrong..it pains me to see other people training under him, because i get angry that people could be so niave..

i know.. even if he was "for real"..even if he chi kung could disperse clouds or have possibilitys to cure cancer or this and that..i still would never be his disciple or anything even close

but..its no matter

the amount of people he affects compared to..hmm lets say, the amount of people who even know about shaolin is so insignificant, i dont loose sleep over the subject

but i do get disturbed when some what intelligent people like wooden dummy or whomever else..buy into wkks mess..its just a shame people cant see through his titles and special abilitys claims and this and that..

but meh..rant over

[doc]

Maestro, I'm assuming that your comments about WKK are your opinion, and not claims of fact.

[Maestro]

truth

truth is in the eye of the beholder docta

whether or not wkk is a fraud is up for debate..but not for me

whether or not hes a grandmaster of this or that is up for debate..but not for me

whether or not he claims to be a grandmaster of kung fu, chi kung, zen, taiji is not up for debate because he states it often

so whether or not he is what i said he is, is up for debate for those whom dont have the same perspective as me

but as for me, and from what ive gathered by researching wahnam and its students for a couple years now, ive come to the conclusion above..

but its all subjective anyway

[doc]

Then I assume from your statements, that you're voicing your opinion, and not stating a fact. That's what I thought you were doing.

[arhat]

just a word...

Originally posted by wooden dummy
Oh fer Christ's sake, this is getting so silly.

Look, it's just a word, okay?

He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that. Can we get on with talking about something that might actually be important or interesting, instead of arguing about the exact, precise significance and connotations of using one stupid word?

This is just my advice. There is an easy way to tell if it is indeed "just a word" or if it is indeed carefully chosen to create a certain illusion. For you guys, obviously the word holds little significance. But you can't get upset with those to whom the word means much much more, and when they try and share with you WHY the word SHOULD mean so much more you come back with "Hey I don't want to hear it." Okay- but they're trying to educate you to something you may not be aware of. You obviously aren't aware of. Especially if someone is a disciple and has been accepted into a gong fu family or Shaolin lineage, surely you can understand why to them the idea of "Sifu Dan" is a little much. You're basically telling people to get over it, when they don't want to get over it because it is one of the reasons they train, and in fact, provides the basis of their training. If it's just a word call WKK, "Hey Kiew Kit, what's up?" It is just a word right? I doubt WKK would feel the same, I mean look at how Dan went on and on about how we call Wong Kiew Kit WKK. He flipped his stack, I wonder why, they're just three letters? The why is because it's a word that sets up a certain framework, a framework in which it should be possible to achieve mastery. Anyway, I would be interested to see what would happen if any of you guys try my little test. Just walk into class and slap Dan on the back, don't bow or anything. Call him "Dan" and see what happens, next time you are in class. See if he smiles from his heart or if he says, hey look, you have to call me Sifu Dan. Maybe he'll blast you into Guan Yin's stellar dimension so she can have a sit down with you. Or call him "Teacher Dan." If he accepts it then you know it is just a word, a means of address and nothing more. If he corrects you, and tells you to call him Sifu then it is more than just a word, it's a scam, because he's riding a concept and making a claim that is impossible for him to make. I'll bet Vince a whole pizza that "sifu" Dan isn't going to like just being called 'Dan.'

In my view CMAs are under attack. Especially Shaolin. It's the next cash cow. An entire wall of a USD school I visited was dedicated to Shaolin merchandise. In my area alone there are more "Shaolin" and Kung Fu schools than you can shake a stick at. We need to hold on to our own and increase understanding. Last year they were pushing cardio kickboxing and kung fu bar mitsvahs. The damage done to American Karate is probably irreversible, mostly, in my opinion, due to the attitude that it is just a word foments. I feel like some things deserve the weight they are given. Why wouldn't you want to take the time to understand the concepts behind the words you use? I find that attitude fascinating. If any Tom Dick or Harry who happens to teach people a few "combat" sets can be called a Sifu, then I submit to you we are in deep doggy poo poo. In Karate, as soon as some people hit black belt they left their schools and opened their own. But they weren't finished with their schooling. Now imagine when their black belts split and did the same. And so on. Then real masters had to invent ridiculous levels to try and set themselves apart, 33rd degree Black Belt, 15th red slash Black Belt. It used to be a term that immediately commanded respect. Now it is practically a joke. There's a 6th grader I know who is a black belt. But hey, it's just a couple of words- doesn't mean anything at all. I just read a seminar solicitation that was sent to the Temple- it was how to maximise the dollar potential of your students, in 3 easy steps, you too can become a "Black Belt Millionaire," the secrets revealed for only one low fee of $695. Money back gaurantee if you're not making several hundred dollars more off your blackbelts in 3 months or some shit like that.

These things exist because of "it's just a word."

It is just a word, but it is a gateway to a concept that should mean something to you guys.

But anyway, you want to turn the topic to something more interesting be my guest.

[Maestro]

usually..

usually..you bet with people who have opposing views..

as for pizza i think we have different tastes..i dont like alot of shit on my pizza..when i eat pizza i dont want to eat bread with a ****in smorguesborge(spelling?ehehe) on top of it..

for me..the most ive ever had on a pizza and enjoyed it was..pepperoni, olives, and of course the cheese

besides that i usually just get the pepperoni..

but anyway enough about pizza!..freakin nyc pie is prolly bigger then my whole body..

anyway..

wood..doesnt think about things he says..

just like me, but he wont acknowledge it, cause hes like me

hes suffering from what i like to call..

younga$$holeitus

in lamens terms it means you say dumb shit, to mature people..with the idea that they are just "misunderstanding"

but im getting off subject..cause theres no cure for guys like us..only time anyway...

the point is..i forgot when dan and them freaked out about the wkk stuff..

but it sure is funny the situation were in now..i mean my god

the fun never ends with these people

maybe england just isnt as bad as they say..

hmmmmmmmm

[arhat]

It does seem to be a rich vein...

[doc]

Maestro, you truly are a kick. And it's spelled smorgasbord. I think..... lol. I've got a case of stupiditis tonight for some reason, which, sorry to say, is far more curable than "youngassholitis". Hey, it's late.

I have one comment, and please don't take this wrong. But if "sifu" is just a meaningless word, why was it used so many, many times in that one post that I commented on previously? I commented on that for a reason, and not because of the grammar. I really got the impression that this whole concept of "respect" is really drilled into the Wahnamites students, (which is probably not far from the truth, considering the fact that they have a web page devoted to the subject), all based upon that one commentary with the overuse of "sifu".

Look, it's just a word, okay? He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that.

Nothing more significant or meaningful than that? Well, true. But it might be evidence of something else underlying. My query way back a few posts, when I first mentioned how the word "sifu" was used in every sentence, was meant to bring forth a concept other than "the word is used a lot". I really got the feeling that this concept of referring to the teacher with respect, as demonstrated by the use of this word, was a major issue. Otherwise, why would the word be used so much? Has anyone ever seen me refer to Decheng as "sifu", anywhere in the site? Hell, I respect him probably more than any other man I've ever known, but, I don't have to refer to him in this fashion to demonstrate it. It's just understood. It's not the use of the word that raises this issue, that Arhat is referring to, it's the way it is used that raises this issue. And, is there anything wrong with teaching respect? Well, no, that's not my point in all of this. I've always felt, as a teacher for many, many years (in medicine), that respect should be earned, and not demanded.

The other thing that is interesting, is the amount of people who are reading this thread, if you haven't noticed....

[dave]

view count IS interesting doc - reminds me of the forum archive from back in the day

dave

[shaolinstylee]

I bet that it is more than the count that is interesting.

As far as anyone being called sifu in the kung fu world... well I'm sure there are some that haven't even really studied all that much. That aside, I think it is a word that denotes a level attained and what the persons intent is with this level of knowledge and ability. To call someone sifu is to refer to them in a high regard, while also saying a lot about why. From what I understand, I don't know if Dan falls into the why you'd call someone sifu... The word means more than just being a kung fu teacher......imho....

Shixiong I think is the word to often forgotten at schools.... older brother.....
shihing in cantonese (?) anyhow, there are too many "sifus/sh'rfu/shifu" not enough shixiong/shihings....

[Maestro]

chinese

makes no difference what they call him in chinese

hes labeled(as are others unworthy of the title) as "master dan hartwright"

all the time when something comes up that has to do with him

so..screw the chinese

its all to obvious what they want people to think of them

[bhodi]

respect

Sifu so and so....yeah i guess we should just get over it. Its not that important. He teaches the class so it is just natural to call him sifu?

That strikes me as bizarre rationale....

I have taught classes...I am no where near a mastery level in kung fu. But I have taught students who were just starting out.... Am I Sifu Bhodi?

Sorry guys but i am not. I am perhaps an older training brother or a more senior student than those i was teaching but never was i even close to being regarded as Sifu.

Shifu Shi Yan Ming asked the class a question at the start of the first buddhism class i ever attended at our temple. He asked us why we say amitabha at the beginning of class. I raised my hand and said ,"respect"

At the time i understood the word respect to mean being polite, obeying an elder, saying sir when addressing a stranger... I basically understood that there were certain behaviours that signified respect for someone but i did not really understand what it meant to have respect for someone. The word is very deep and courses through the definitions of so many other hard hitting words, (ie. honesty, Love) that often times are also misunderstood.

I began to think about this only because I realized that i was now making the choice to take Shifu Shi Yan ming as my master if he would accept me. I had entered into a master/disciple relationship. I quickly began to absorb the famous story of Bhodidharma that had been discussed here so often. I realized it was a story about a man Hui Ke deciding that he wanted to become the disciple of Tamo. He sought Tamo to accept him and teach him as a disciple. Tamo realized that Hui Ke was full of his own expectations as to the way that teaching should take tangible form and knew that until there was some change in Hui Ke he would be unable to teach him no matter how much he wanted to. Tamo says to him i will teach you when red snow falls from the sky. I don't think he said this because he didn't want to teach hui Ke. He said this because he knew it would be impossible to teach him as long as Hui Ke was not in the proper state of mind. Hui Ke showed that there was the appropriate change in a tangible way by removing his own arm. He was now able to become Tamo's disciple.

Out of respect for Hui Ke and as an acknowledement of that process we salute each other with only one arm.

This is an outward sign of respect but people tend to get caught up in the outward signs and never see the process that went on inside Hui Ke's mind. What do the signs of respect mean?

A master/disciple relationship is a big deal. It is very important. It puts you in a position where you need to think about these things. Respect is a difficult thing. If you have a master who you respect you need to be honest with them at all times. How can you be honest with them if you are not honest with yourself? How can you develop a respectful relationship with anyone? (some people think respecting someone you love means that you abide by the rules of a relationship. I think this is the wrong way to approach the term respect)

Most religions are designed to help people to have a stronger relationship with their God. If you are not honest with yourself, if you don't respect yourself, how can you be honest with God? If you are not respectful of yourself and others then it is not possible to be respectful and honest with regards to God. IF you do not cultivate that first order of respect for yourself and then for those people and things you interact with then how can you have respect for the intangibles, (transcience, love, honor, compassion, God) after the physical is all taken care of then you can start to move into the deeper waters of the conceptual.

Respect is a big deal in a master /disciple relationship and if this is not something that you feel then I would suggest that you are not in one...in which case the signs of it existing in your situation (like calling someone Master) are a farse and do nothing positive for anyone involved.

Amitabha!!!
Bhodi