Kung Fu for fighting; Gong Fu origins

[prajna]

Originally posted by doc
I doubt very much that Damo had anything to do with the martial arts orientation of the temple. Now, where did I write that aspect of the history...

Could Damo have brought the Indian Kalarippayatt art (Similar to Kungfu) to Shaolin?

http://www.kalarippayatt.co.uk

[zachsan]

maestro:

it seems like it's very easy to understand where these stories come from and why, but very hard to verify it.

anyway, so the i-ching really developed in mesopotamia and the idea of imitating animals in combat originated in africa. that's great, but whoever came up with the idea first, it just does not stand to reason that the "fighting animals" idea made its way from africa to china at that time, since they didn't seem to do it anywhere in between. and as far as the i-ching is concerned, whether or not it was actually invented in mesopotamia, i don't know of any record of its principles being applied to combat until it "got to" china. you certainly seem to know more about the i-ching than i do, but the i-ching itself has nothing to do with my question until martial applications become involved. yes, i have done my share of research, on what i'm trying to discuss in this thread.

dogchow:

i think i understand what you're saying, it's a burden-of-proof question. that is, rather than trying to find evidence that it was martial, the burden of proof should be to find evidence that it was not martial, given the climate of china at the time. am i right?

this makes sense, but the biggest point to me is that shaolin was a buddhist, pacifist monastery. if these styles were created by the secular villlagers, then it would make complete sense that their intended application would be martial. but, as they were created by peaceful monks, it seems to me that, all legend aside, one should naturally assume that they were non-martial.

the catch, of course, being that they weren't actually created by shaolin monks, but that the 18 hands of lohan seem to have been mixed with pre-existing martial styles of locals to create the first shaolin gongfu. i know i seem like i'm contradicting myself, but my original point still stands. techniques created by real-life trial and error in the surrounding countryside were taken and modified by shaolin monks. the consensus seems to be that the monks, in their wisdom, made these mundane techniques into something infinitely more effective through their spiritual insight; but how do we know that the opposite didn't happen, and previously effective techniques were watered-down into something more spiritual but less lethal?

- zach

p.s. in all honesty, i only meant to raise the question, because it's impossible to prove or disprove either one of these ideas really. the fact remains that a fighting advantage is one of the benefits of practicing real gongfu today, regardless of the history. i think some people are mistaking my curiosity for an attack, and i apologize for that.

[daodejing]

Neitzsche wrote that the purpose of any activity or social construct (he was speaking more specifically about punishment, in "The Geneology of Morals") is not constant. The purpose is gong fu is not a universal thing, instead it is the purpose of the will of each practitioner. Though it is similar in many people, spiritual and physical cultivation, people take up martial arts for their own reasons. It may have started with no intention of fighting. But each student adapts the art to be what they want it to be for them. I agree wholeheartedly with you zack, but one has to admit that by the time qin na evolved into the system of shaolin gongfu, it was most definitively an art of warfare (or at least defense against war). Purpose is not constant, that is the only answer I can offer to your initial question.

[Maestro]

africa, I-ching, shaolin

just a side note, chinas first first historical dynasty and emperor were black(shang dynasty), founded by king Tang or Ta, the shang were called "Nakhi" (na-black khi-man)

africans had a huge influence on early asian civilization, but thats another story

rock solid evidence..well there are the murals on shaolins walls, imperial records of shaolin monks using fighting techinques to fight off japanese pirates(battle o baishawan), the 13 shaolin monks who helped li shimin etc etc

there really is lots of evidence but we are forgetting

that alot of the monks and lay disciples of shaolin were accomplished martial artists, generals, swordsmen etc before they entered the temple..but really they went there to INCREASE there martial skills, aswell as to share there knowledge..but really thats how shaolin has always been

countless legends, imperial records, the murals, the land, the devastating techinques etc dont come from nowhere

they dont say "all martial arts under heaven owe there origin to shaolin" for nothing, its not literal obviously..

did the "peaceful monks" incorporate the combat aspects of shaolin gong fu, in my mind theres no question, to much evidence..but you have to make up your own mind

amitabha

[zachsan]

well this has all been very informative, thanks. really i was just having trouble reconciling the idea of isolated buddhist monks and trained deadly killers in my mind, but it would seem, from what i've read on this board and other parts of this site, that the monks were neither isolated and heavenly nor secular soldiers. basically, the idea of a "warrior monk" was just too fanciful for me to accept without some kind of history behind it, but, as i'm not about to embark on a giant history-book expedition, i'm satisfied with the history i've gotten.

now, as far as the first chinese emperors being black...

- zach

[cassius]

Oh-oh-oh-oh...
Everybody was Kung Fu fighting,
those kids were fast as lightning.
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they fought with expert timing
There was funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were trapping when up, they were trapping when down
It's an ancient Chinese art, and everybody knew their part
For my friend, ain't you a stiff, then I'm kickin' from the hip

Everybody was Kung Fu fighting, those kids were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they fought with expert timing
There was funky Billie Jim and little Sammy John
He said, here comes the big boss, let's get it on
We took the bow and made a stand, started swaying with the hand
A sudden motion made me stiff, now we're into a brandnew trip
Everybody was Kung Fu fighting, those kids were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they did it with expert timing
Oh-oh-oh-oh...

[dogchow108]

well i would reply since i finally found this place, but i guess theres no real use at this point.

Maestro, can you send me some info about the first emperors of china being black? i have a friend who i think would be very interested in that.


DC

[Maestro]

yahoo

email me at mysticlama@yahoo.com ill send you some interesting information

amitabha

[doc]

Why don't you just put it on the forum so the rest of us can learn from it. First emperors being black?

[Maestro]

alright

http://www.faem.com/books/blaksec2.htm

this link basically has alot of information about blacks and the migration of blacks..lol

umm, if anything its got tons of info and **** for you guys to read up on(i havent gotten around to reading up on all this crazyness yet)

the book you really need to get a hold of though is

"Africans presence in Early Asia by Ivan Van Sertima and Runoko Rashidi" it has work with Professor Albert Etienne Terrien de Lacouperie who was a scholars scholar..

its all interesting information, although even though the hsia and fu hsi are regarded as "legendary or mythological" there really is alot more history to china and its surrounding areas then what is commonly known

anyhow, hope this helps

amitabha

[Maestro]

i also have a file of an exert from "african roots in asian martial arts" by Killindi iyi but its to big to upload!

[Uwe]

The original Question

Zachsan,

here is a little info in regards to your original question, when the Thread started.


Uwe

///////////////////////////////////////////////Begin////////////////////////////////////////
Although Damo is often credited with being the first important figure in Shaolin, this is simply not true. While he certainly had a tremendous influence, it started almost 3000 years earlier. It is known that the first reported forms of Gong Fu are almost five thousand years old. The Great Yellow Emperor Huang Ti, used an early form of the art with startling success in an important battle in the year 2675 BC. Records indicate that this first form of Gong Fu, then called Chion Ti was probably restricted to weapon techniques.

At around 2600 BC there was another form of combat, this time wrestling and hand to hand combat named Go-Ti that could be translated as "horn gore". It consisted of wearing horns on the heads of the contestants and goring at each other. This sport was so popular that it was handed from generation to generation until today. On the occasion of festivals the natives of Shanshi, Honan and Manchuria are still entertaining themselves with the traditional Go-Ti dance. To escape being gored called for some pretty fancy footwork, which in turn resulted in the beginning of unarmed combat. In due course, the sport was modified by the removal of the horns.

It was however the 6th century BC., that saw the total change of Kung-fu, elevated from a mere self-defense art. In fact, the great sage Confucius (alias Kung-Fu-Tzu) whose philosophy molded Chinese culture for thousands of years, had his students and followers study hand unarmed combat forms, archery and charioteering as military arts and also writing, mathematics, music and propriety. Also very significant were the teachings of the great sage, LAO TZU, who lived at the same time as Confucius. Lao Tzu wrote the Dao De Jing (the power and the way) which shows the wisdom of Taoism as a philosophic system rather than a religious way of achieving higher states of consciousness. This is actually very much like Yoga. His system was rapidly incorporated in the development of the Kung-fu schools and from this point in history, the two disciplines, self-defense and wisdom, grew together developing later breath control, meditation techniques, physical exercise, medical practices, alchemy and scholarship. During the "Han Dynasty,Gong Fu and it's companion art GoTi became increasingly popular.

The art of hand-to-hand fighting Chuen Chu was originally called Chi-Chi (meaning to strike with skill). The book of Han, written by Pan Kuo, devotes four chapters to strategy, namely Machiavellism, Configuration, the Positive and Negative principles in nature and Skill. The skill chapter is 199 pages long, showing the exercise of arms and legs, the practice and use of weapons and the ways to lead an enemy into a trap.

The next significant advancement of the art was supplied by the Chinese medicine. The brilliant doctor Hua To (220 AD) devised a sequence of movements to relieve muscular and emotional tension while tonifying the body, based on the movements of different animals and called FROLICS OF THE FIVE ANIMALS, imitating the tiger, the deer, the bear, the monkey and the bird. This system removes disease, strengthens the legs (considered essential in Gong Fu) and ensures health, consisting of jumping, twisting, swaying, crawling, rotating and contracting.

In the Ming Dynasty the wrestling was developed considerably by the Chinese, creating an advanced art centered on ability and ingenuity instead of sheer strength. The aim was to throw the opponent at instant contact and the name of the style was Kuai Chiao. Since then, the art of wrestling had been divided into two branches, the Chinese, concentrated on ingenuity and the Mongolian, on sheer strength. Originated by Kwok Yee sometime during the Hou Han Dynasty (25-220 AD) the Long Hand style of Chi-Chi (Gong Fu) was conceived to allow an unarmed person to defeat heavily armed opponents.

[2] Another interesting development was taking place prior to 2600 BC.. Scholar monks in the 5th century BC have described a very ancient series of medical gymnastics called cong fu. Being reputed to be practical prior to 2600 BC, these exercises combined specific physical movements to keep the body healthy, the mind alert and the spirit calm.

The existence of these exercises has been further collaborated by certain legends in Chinese medical history. In this era, the Yellow Emperor, Huang Ti, nationalized the art of medicine and appointed medical agents to be sent throughout the territory to prescribe treatments for common illnesses, including medical gymnastics to maintain health, this undoubtedly being what the scholar monks called cong fu or the first record of Gung Fu for medical purposes.

During the Tang Dynasty, the art of go-ti" was introduced to Japan with other areas of the Chinese culture and was immediately adopted with the name of Sumo.

The turbulent seventh and eighth century BC.: during this period, it was recorded in the Book of Songs (Shih Ching), one of the six classics of the Chinese culture of those days, that "without boxing techniques a man is relegated to the lower ranks of the army". This proves that already in those days, there was a levied system of boxing.

[doc]

Great post Uwe, as always.

Great website, Maestro. Very racist, very anti jewish, very opinionated. I really got a kick out of it. Got some really funny stuff on it, such as this gem:

Most of the country's health problems arise among the race mixed and genetically impoverished. John (elephant man) Merrick had a severe genetic fault and it is now shared with over 100,000 Americans -- and growing -- because being ugly doesn't seem to stop copulation. In fact, it often encourages it. Every high school boy knows that it's easier to find loose crotches if you are on the football team, or have an expensive car, than it is if you are the school's chemistry whiz. Ugly actors, such as Mitchum and Palance, have always been sought out as sexual partners far more often than a Robert Taylor or Tyrone Power. Women have no taste, as Ludovici points out, beyond an assessment of a bank account and penis mass. Ugly attracts women since it brings out their motherly instinct to nurse and care for that which is lowest on the totem pole. How often is it that healthy and intelligent children are ignored by the mothers since "they can take care of themselves" and therefore need no help? Sows have far more survival sense. They eat their weak and disfugured young.

Has russbo.com been dethroned with respect to educational value?

[Maestro]

doc doc doc

even a lotus blossoms from ****, you have to work hard to find the truth

its distracting at times, but really i only posted the link for the resources that were given in context to asia

do some research on the topic(black influence on early asian civilization)

and, as a interesting experiment..next trip to china(unless your there now) go seek out some chinese scholars and ask them whats what..youll be surprised, i gurantee it!

amitabha

[Maestro]

oh yea

oh yea, if i didnt make this clear(haha) this is the man you need to be learning from on this subject, sorry if the website might have scared some of you wannabe scholars away from the subject

"One of the most outstanding contributions to the history and origins of the Chinese people and their philosophies was Professor Albert Etienne Terrien de Lacouperie. The work of Lacouperie did in this area of investigative study have never been rivaled, let alone surpassed. He was a scholar's scholar holding several prestigious positions in the field of historical academia. Professor Terrien de Lacouperie held appointments as Professor of Indo-Chinese Philology at the University of London, President of Council of the Royal Asiatic Society and Philological Society, and board member of the Peking Oriental Society. He authored 25 books, among them the provocatively titled The Languages of China Before Chinese, West Asian Origins of Chinese Civilization, The Black-Heads of Babylonian and Ancient China, The YH-King and Its Authors. An accomplished philologist, Lacouperie used language and various historical documents to launch what seems to be an impenetrable defense for a West Asian origin of China's I-Ching. Lacouperie began by identifying a group of families known as the Bak which immigrated into China carrying with them the beginnings of civilization - a well-defined sociopolitical structure, writing, philosophy, and economic fortification. Culturally, this group was intimately related to the Meso-Sumerians of West Asia. Racially and ethnically the Bak were descendents from the Black Akkadians and Elamites of Mesopotamia (these regions were controlled and culturally dominated by the oldest Black populations of West Asia), Van Setima, and Rashidi"

amitabha