gong fu vs. wushu

[doc]

Now picture throwing an overhand elbow with his left hand and then punching with the same hand.

It's a little more complicated than that, but, what you're describing is the traditional Shao Hong Chuan.

There is a slideshow on the foru of Shao Hong Chuan, in, the File Library/Slideshows. I suggest that you look at it. All of these moves are adequately pictured there.

Remind me to respond to the other post later. I've got a busy night here.

[doc]

this is relevant, because, if the applications have only been taught as recently as the 20th century, the difference is then not really one of contemporary vs. traditional, but of "contemporary show" vs. "contemporary martial" vs. "traditional".

You guys are really getting hung up on the wushu versus traditional nonsense. There really isn't much difference.

Martial arts are martial arts, whether they are used to kick ass, or, to meditate. It is still the "art of fighting". What you do with it is up to you; it doesn't change the definition of what it is. (The art of shooting is still an art, regardless of whether you do it in a range to punch holes in paper, or, assassinate enemies of the state). A person that is skilled in wushu is just as capable of kicking your ass, as a guy who predominantly leans towards the more traditional forms. They are still, basically, the same movements. Just because competitions have become popular in China, and the traditional forms have been altered and their movements exagerrated, doesn't mean that they are not basically derived from the same background. Some people practice this for their health, some do it to learn how to fight.

Lipeng asked me one time to do the forms I learned at the other schools. When I was done he said "why do the other monks teach wushu and call it shaolin?" When someone of his high level says that it makes you think you've been mislead. Almost swindled.

Mortal, where did you train before? I have a feeling that this is the basis for the issues here.

[dogchow108]

doc-

the time to get worried is when the issue dosent get resolved and we get a thread full of ad-hominem (usually the result of political threads, but also the result of any thread on shaolinwolf.com, unfortunately.

i guess the key is when to stop.

the reason we get hung up on this is, well, because we're forum nerds! its our duty to do these things; dont really worry about it.

[Sir Didymus]

How come Wu Shu guys can do tornado kicks and butterfly kicks and butterfly twists like it's basic, but often can't do a good front kick or side kick? Actually it's very rare to see a good hook kick. By a Wu Shu performer or a movie star. Such as.. Jet Li. Sorry if you like him. His kicks kinda.. suck. Looks very flowery and weak. And the technique isn't so good but he can do the pretty kicks. Anyway, I wonder why Wu Shu guys can do all these pretty kicks but not the basic fighting kicks. That makes me think they can't really fight. Or have never done it. I'd say Wu Shu training is just as effective as traditional training for flexibility, speed, strength, endurance, all of that. But I haven't seen a Wu Shu guy who can do the basic fighting kicks and look like he has hit something with it before. Looks like they only kick in the air.

Now, that's my opinion. Look for it next time and try to see what I mean. Anything to say about it. Let me know. If you say they do fight just like traditional methods, tell me how come they can't kick unless it is jumping and spinning and flipping. Why can't they just stand on the ground and kick a head off or break some ribs? It's sad, they say they do Chinese Martial Arts, but the technique is so bad and weak.

[doc]

How come Wu Shu guys can do tornado kicks and butterfly kicks and butterfly twists like it's basic, but often can't do a good front kick or side kick?

I guess it all depends on what you think "good" is. And, what are you comparing it to? I get the feeling that you're using your knowleged of the Japanese martial arts (the hook kick), to compare the "wushu" kicks.

There is a lot of strength used in the Japanese martial arts, as there is in Muay Thai, in their kicks. The Chinese seem to focus more on speed, instead of strength. (Which, when you think about it, is more attuned to their body habitus). You can still get a lot of power out of a limb that is moving fast. I wouldn't be too unimpressed with the kicks that you see in "wushu". If you want, I'll film Xingwei's "flowery kick" on a bag.

It will change your mind.

[goninjago3]

Hey Doc,

I also train under Li Peng with Mortal. I have seen De Cheng's Xiao Hong on the german instructional video he made. I also saw it on a shaolin temple demo video made some years ago. Li Peng's is very different! For instance, after the second palm strike to the left. De Cheng turns the body to the right and does that back hand strike. Li Pengs as 4 complete movements that happen to make this transition. When he turns to the right he does a full elbow strike to the right in gung bu. Then he does a sweeping motion with the right hand as if scooping under a kick, at the same time his right foot returns to his left foot in ding bu, the left hand is in front of the face to guard. Then he steps again in gung bu and does the same elbow strike. Then the back hand strike comes out with long snapping motion. Every movement has this amount of complexity in Li Peng's form. Don't get me wrong, I think De Cheng is amazing! I have great respect for his kung fu. I think you would be very excited about Li Peng's style. De Cheng's is the closest to Li Peng's that I have seen. If anyone is interested in seeing Li Peng's kung fu you should try to get to the competition and master's demo July 24th in Jersey.

[doc]

I have no doubt that Li Peng knows Shao Hong Chuan in the purely traditional sense. And, don't be fooled by Decheng's going through the form quickly; as I've said before, there are many applications within each step, and each group of steps, many of which he's shown me. But when you do the form, you don't necessarily accentuate each move.

The reason why, is, well, up for debate.

I strongly believe, that shaolin gong fu is very secretive. When I first learned Shao Hong Chuan nine years ago, I didn't have the slightest idea what I was doing. But, after I became his disciple, and he started breaking down each move, step by step, and showing me the various applications of each, I started to understand the strength of the form. And, I started to understand what I was doing.

Many of the maneuvers in gong fu are kind of hidden. They're not obvious to the untrained (or trained) eye. And, the ones that are, also have some hidden aspects to them. Hidden strikes. Strikes that don't look like strikes. Very unlike the Japanese martial arts.

Why this stuff is "hidden", can be a subject for discussion (a new thread, please, lol). But, in my mind, a lot of it is. And, I can show you how it is. Kind of hard to do so in a verbal forum though.

Regards to Li Peng. Tell him he's welcome to come out and visit with us at any time.

[goninjago3]

Doc,

Would Xing Wei be interested in performing or bringing students to the July competition? I know all 4 of the texas monks will be there. Yan Ming and Hengxin I believe will not be there. Guolin will be there. It should be a lot of fun.

[doc]

No, we won't be able to make it. Xingwei has to teach here in Vegas; we have no backup instructors, because I'll be in China, Decheng will be in China, and Kevin will be in China.

Besides, we were not invited.

[goninjago3]

I think this is only because he is unfamiliar with Xing Wei. I know De Ru wasn't invited either. Whatever.

[doc]

Not a problem, lol. We wish him the best with it, and if there's anything we can do to help him promote it, he should let us know.

[Sir Didymus]

Xiao Hong Quan- I have seen Guo Lin do this very strange compared to what I have done long ago and have seen other monks do. Like palm strikes into punches. Crescent kicks into snap kicks. I don't know.. doesn't matter. I don't do it that way.

On my topic of Wu Shu kicks. Well, first, I don't and never did Japanese Martial Arts. Yuck. I'm loyal to my traditional Gong Fu. What I was comparing it to was my own technique and technique of other fighters. I practice my kicks to work in a fight. I have seen many people kicking. (Chinese) And I have trained many of them. To me the Wu Shu guys, when the stand still and kick, it looks fast but weak. You can get power from a fast moving leg. But if they are fighters they would put some power into it. What I was talking about though, is the technique. The kicks have no snap at all. It's just kinda thrown up. Easily i know. Cuz the flexibility. Which is nice. But it looks like they have never even hit a bag with it. You can tell the difference between a kick of someone who has hit something and used it in a fight, and a kick of someone who only did it to look nice for points.

Xing Wei, no doubt he can kick and mean it. He did traditional Gong Fu as well, did he not? I'm talking about pure Wu Shu people. I know Yan Zi looks scary when he kicks in a form. Like it would hurt like hell to get kicked by him. But Wu Shu, no. Can't you see the difference in technique when you do a kick to practice making it pretty. Then once you actually faught with it. Your technique will change to a fighting way. And you can see the difference there.

Hook kick, not japanese. That's when you do like a sidekick off target then hook it back across horizontally. It's hard to find someone who can really do it. Bruce Lee couldn't even do it. But his kicks weren't the best either. Spin kicks kinda sucked. Sidekick and Roundhouse were beautiful though. Donnie Yen, one of my favorite Martial Arts Stars. I liked him because in movies he had people pad up. He said get ready cuz I'm really gonna kick you to make it look real. So of course when you kick in a fight your kick won't always look the best. But he knew how to really kick someone. Though his sidekick would kinda rechamber like a roundhouse which was ugly. He couldn't really do hook kick either. Bruce Lee was one of his favorite people though. Anyway, you can tell when Bruce or Xing Wei, someone like that kicks. You know they have hit something before. You can see it in the technique. But it's just not there for Wu Shu. No snap, No power, No chambering the kick. Totally not like a fighting technique..

That's All

[doc]

The physics of leg kicks

Hook kick, not japanese.

The hook kick is taught in kempo.

I somewhat agree with your other comments. Yes, there can be a difference between "fast" and "strong" kicks. Just compare some of the Muay Thai fighters, with what you see with some of the wushu people. But, there can still be a lot of power imparted from a fast moving limb. A lot of power. It might not look like it's got a lot of strength behind it, but it can cause a lot of damage. Remember your basic physics.

Let's talk about that, shall we?

Newton's second law states that net force = mass times acceleration, or, mass times ending velocity - mass times starting velocity, divided by time. To look at this another way, net force times time = mass times ending velocity - mass times starting velocity, or, the difference between the starting and ending momentum. (momemtum being mass times velocity).

Impulse is defined as the difference between ending and starting momemtum, of that object.

The net force of a moving object, is therefore equal to the impulse of that object, divided by the time it is moving.

To generate the largest amount of force, you either have to have a significantly large amount of mass, or, a large acceleration (the difference between the starting and ending velocities). Or, more significantly, move that object to it's final speed, in the shortest time possible.

In the equation for impulse, if the difference in momemtum is the same for two kickers (two people with the same size leg, with equal starting, at rest, and ending velocities, upon impact), the only way you can maximize the net force that you strike someone with, is by decreasing the period of time that the leg is moving.

That is, move it faster.

So, remember this. Speed hurts.

Xingwei spent a lot of time in the temple. About fourteen years if I remember correctly. (Guolin spent most of his time at another temple, thus is Shao Hong Chuan might be different than what you've seen at Shaolin). Xingwei's training has been both in traditional and in contemporary. He still kicks the same, regardless of what form he's doing. And from what I've seen in these schools, the training for kicks is basically all the same. Granted, for performances, one can easily suggest, as you do, that the kicks are done for speed, without apparent power, so that they can get through the forms as fast, and as perfectly, as possible. I agree with that. But, don't discount the power imparted by a fast kick. Faster is better than stronger.

[pazman]

baojian, to support what doc said....good wushu demands a display of power. yes, you see a lot of wushu which, on an athletic level, is impressive but lacks a lot of the 'old school' expression of power that you would see back in the 1970s and 1980s wushu tournaments (Pan Qingfu is a good example of 'old school' wushu ethic). I'm not really into wushu, but I've always thought the best wushu players are ones with a traiditional gongfu background. Likewise, adding the atheleticism and demands of contemporary wushu training to a traditional gongfu regimine seems very common today, which is a good thing, kind of weeds out the fat hippies, hehe.

take what is useful i suppose.....

[zachsan]

i'm sorry, but saying something like "wushu guys can't fight", where your criterea for being "wushu" is "not really being able to fight", what you're really saying is: "people who can't fight can't fight." you're just not saying anything.

different MA schools take very different approaches. since the beginning of gongfu history, people have been calling systems from rival schools "too flowery" or "just for show". making the distinction between wushu and true gongfu is just a newer way of making the same old argument, and, as always, it's a marketing ploy. a way of making your own particular school look better. and indocrtinated students perpetuate this advertising even further without even realizing that they're advertising. that's just a darker side of the tradition of martial arts.

in the old days, they would take these arguments and attempt to "prove" them by dangerous, often fatal contests, because they were idiots. today, we argue about the specific mechanics of a kick for hours on computer screens, because we're idiots.

just find something that turns you on, stick with it, and see where it takes you, because it's up to the individual.

- zach