Shaolin Kung Fu - really fighting?

[arhat]

very interesting Vince...

...but then how do you deal with karma building up over lives...

[Bungle]

do you mean how do you mean, how do you stop karma from past lives affecting you now? What do you mean?

[Bungle]

ugh, that message went a bit criptic. I'm tired...been getting up at 5 in the morining lately. I would only have to get up at 6 if i didn't want to do a damn hour of meditation... Anyway, simply, Could you explain a little more Arhat. Thanks

[Maestro]

well my dear watson..

i can only speak about karma in a whimsical(spelling? manner..i mean i dont know all the mysterys of the universe..and i cant even begin to imagine how they work or why..but i can ponder etc

so on the subject of karma and reincarnation..i have mixed feelings about the subject..one i try and remember things ive been taught in different stages of my life..

things i dunno why but i always remember..sayings like "once the seed of zen is planted in your mind, its only a matter of time for it to blossom" the saying went something like that..

or how christians say "every man lives but once"

things like these are true..you see the cycle of reincarnation is supposed to be based on the karmic cycle..but when rebirth is talked about..being reborn as a human is never thought of as being a punishment..infact being reborn as a human is supposed to be a extremely rare blessing..

and..on the note of suffering..well who really does suffer if the above is true? I could kill 100 people..id eventually die one way or another..but I will NEVER face any punishment for my wrong doings according to the laws of karma(i think anyway..)..sooner or later my spirit or soul(which is all complimentary to the mundane realm) will eventually be reborn in the human realm and maybe that person will experience some feedback..or maybe my previous forms did..the point is I wont ever experience any of the major backlash of karma because VINCE is only gonna live once, i am unique in that no one else is exactly like me..and no one else EVER will be, and its an easy concept to understand, espically if you understand change..change is constant, so if change is constant even though nature and peoples moods etc are reacurring ..people are always going to be free willed and unique..every person only lives once

karma passing from life to life..i dunno i dont think all mass murders and rapists turn into frogs or lowely creatures in their next life..i dunno how things like where and when a soul would transform into who or what..i cant imagine thered be a force governing it..because if there was then there would have to be a force governing them and so on and so forth..i dunno, i have mixed feelings i guess, and im not sure about any of it..its all the more reason to meditate and study upon the subject..

but also..people do talk about being able to whipe your slate clean etc etc when it comes to karma..and if you think about it, its similar to the christian belief of salvation..all sins forgiven through christ etc...

anyway..rant is now over

heheheheh

[Bungle]

it's definately not a simple issue but i imagine in some book somwhere someone has given in depth analysis of this. I havn't read it but the tibetan book of the dead?

I've read that in buddhism there is no soul. The seemingly ever living you that is can witness all the actions you make in your current life is just mental energy. This energy holds karmic seeds and holds them through rebirths. There are different types of karma too. One that can only affect you in this life and one that could manifest in this life or any other. I definately think it is worth reading something from the tibetans on the subject.

Rebirth isn't only supposed to be based on amounted karma too. Apprently you can control your rebirth to some degree with your last dying thoughts. The tibetans can apprently go even further and control the entire rebirth process and manifest exactly how they like.

I think karma could be used as a concept in christianity but i think the aims of buddhism is very different.

You say everyone is constantly changing. Yeah, but what is the change based on. For most people it is based on their karma. For example, if have a karmic seed that tells me i'm fat. This is what makes up part of my map of reality or ego. Then if i try to lose weight, i may succeed for a while but my map of reality will resist change to it and unless i change my map of reality and release the karmic seed then i'll most likely regain fat.

So you see, how we constantly change is based upon our karmic seeds that help form our map of reality. Unless of course, we come to realise we are not the map of reality and that it is only a handy tool. That is what meditation does. Slowly evolves our map of reality to higher and higher levels(reflects reality more and more), releasing karma. Then when we have good enough intuition we can see it is not us and we'll be free and enlightened.

It is possible that i've strayed away from what you were saying. Also, i might of assumed that you were familiar with the above kind of buddhist psychology. Maybe ya not, sorry if that's the case.

[Maestro]

buddhadamapadawadayaaaaaaaa

the soul does exist in buddhism

it resides in the mundane realm where it stays untill it reachers transcendental reality

now this is one way of looking at buddhism..there are of course others, which is fine

but dont make closed ended statements about buddhism..i sometimes do the same but its important to remember all buddhists dont follow or agree to the same method or philosophy..but generally they will agree upon the ultimate goal of the practitioner..but sometimes not even that!

and karma isnt destiny, its cause and effect..if karma does build up over lives then it will have an effect on an individual but it wont map out their ego or define them as a person

destiny..heaven..chi..karma they are all related and discussed and theroized etc by the chinese..you can find info like what were talking about in the classics

i reccomend the i ching

and people dont change because of their karma, people ie people of this world, change because of karma yes, and because of society, evolution, technology etc etc it is a combination of things..the best way imho to live a happy life is to understand change, and to learn to cope with things like karma etc..if your a strong and wise person you can bend these forces to your will..its why i believe what i do about karma..course i have nothing set in stone, but i have ideas..

anyway..rant over

[Bungle]

yeah, it isn't just karma that effects our personality. Depends how you look at it. I guess you gotta stop theorising and go out and learn from experience. Only so much you can read.

You guys have spoken about the differences but from what i've read different points of views on buddhism and that's all they are. Points of view, all looking at the same object. So they all agree at the end of the day.

[Bungle]

oh and i agree with the change thingy

[Saeed]

Why would a Monk need a Weapon?
Why would a Monk look at ciropracics and investigate nerve-point damage?
Why did shaolin Monks, attached a segment that would be used as intensive offence or even defencive moves that were very physical and hurtfull to the opponent?

Good questions actually...

We have been trying to discuss these factors and a lot of interesting points have been placed.


I am a student of Shaolin in Canada. Now my training is not the same as the training put forward for the students of the Temple in China, because of Obvious cultural differences but i could understand the reasoning behind it.

A prospective of religon is very prominent in these discussions, so from there i will start my Hypothesis.

There is almost no religon that does not explecitly Orders its followers to remain in peace. No religon allows its subjetcs to hurt any living being on purpose regardless if it is being taught by Mohammad, Christ, or Budha.

Then Y do any person do that? They do it for the same reason Shaolin practisioners did it. human Instinct!

Shaolin's teachings are free of Religous Constraints, and it could not be described in the framework of Religon itself.

The shaolin Monks were very aware of their environment. They actually studied their surroundings and then studies more.

The initial way Y Martial Arts resembles animal movements is because it started as mimicing animal movements belive it or not to Communicate with the animals or to understand their nature. This dates back B4 Kung Fu reached China. Shaolin enhanced these pre-made styles and created Shaolin Kung Fu for strictly exercising their mind and Body. Budha was a firm beliver in a healthy body maintains a helthy mind.

Theoist Belif's definately is a key point in understanding this but another more convincing theory is that these exercises came into implementation and in Mid-Evil China for protection the Kata's evolved.

It is human instinct, no one can deny it. anything that could be used for good could be used for evil and sadly, people not individuals but people cannot resist looking at both sides and implementing both sides.

The fact that Blades, Crane Sword and the Spears were invented to make brutal contact with the opponents is not shaolin evolving itself but it is people evolving shaolin, there is a big difference.

Many Monks were banned from the monasteries for their Mis-Conduct. Many were banned because of False Accusitions. Many were recruitted in the emperor's force and many were free to construct and use what equipments necessary to defeat the enemy.

When Monks with no self control are allowed and trusted with the great resources of the emperor free to make and research weaponry and free to experiment on live sentient beings, things get oput of Control. and since in those times the Shaolin temples had a huge Political standing, a premitive version of An Arm's Race began for Kung fu.

Well that is my interpretation anyway!

[Maestro]

lohan quan?

what style of shaolin gung fu do you practice?

amitabha

[Vasuva]

Since I don't know how to use that cool looking quote ability, I'll have to refer to the author and quote directly.
My belief to Saeed's question of why monks use weapons, pressure points, and fighting in general is that what Da Mao spread to them was important to them. From reading other literature on this site and other pages, Chinese general's and soldiers helped bolster their abilities. Maybe the Shaolin monks decided that if they were already on the path to enhance their bodies that they'd evolve it into the best that they could be.
Instead of wrestling with an opponent....the second they touch you, you apply pressure points to subdue them. Weapons are something that I couldn't definitely create a theory for. The most I can guess is that in order to assist in keeping the peace and protecting themselves in their region, weapons would be necessary to stop enemies who themselves had those weapons.
Again, most of the stuff I wrote here came from russbo.com itself. I think Doc is right about a lot of what he's talking about. On a side cynical note....why are we questioning whether or not Shaolin monks should...when they already are??? Are we just questioning their qualification for Buddhism?? I just don't see the practical reason for this thread in general.

[zachsan]

fighting monks? i think it can be summed up like this: weird **** comes from china.

- zach

[dadoo]

monks had to defend themselves. Sometimes a good defense is a good offense. If you continually only repel, your opponents if larger/stronger would wear you down. therefore the only way to prevent further attack is to neutralize. That is why they had learn those skills.

[dadoo]

Also more on killing from Falun Dafa. I'm not totally buying this but an interesting perspective

Wars are a state of affairs brought about by major changes in the overall celestial phenomena. You were only one small part of those affairs. If nobody made a move under changes in the celestial phenomena, it wouldn’t bring about that state of affairs in the ordinary world, and it wouldn’t be called a change in the celestial phenomena. Those things change based on larger changes, so you can’t be held totally accountable for that thing. What we’re talking about here is the karma that’s brought about when you insist on doing bad things to benefit yourself, or to get ahead, or when something of yours is on the line. So when it comes to changes that affect the entire, large space, and major changes that involve the state of society, those aren’t your fault.

[daodejing]

Just a little addition to all the previously written discourse on karma. In america, karma is an obscure philosophical construct. In sanskrit, karma simply means work. What your desire determines what your works are. What you work at determines how you are reborn according to hindu beleif. Kama determines karma which in turn determines samsara. And my friends, samsara IS nirvana.