Sparring concepts

[dogchow108]

to be honest...no...i guess i wont. i just wanted to say my opinion. its bull**** for tournaments. thats just..well..that. i would ahve to talk about it in person really because its such a hot topic.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by dogchow108
[B]to be honest...no...i guess i wont. i just wanted to say my opinion.

Hmmmm. So we can make statements and refuse to back them up?

Ok. I'll play.

The earth is a trapezoid balanced on the head of an arthritic duck billed platypus.

its bull**** for tournaments. thats just..well..that. i would ahve to talk about it in person really because its such a hot topic.

Sparring can be a game for tournaments. It can also be a drill, a more high stakes version of marching up and down the floor doing combinations.

What you make of sparring is determined by how you treat the whole exercise.

Mark

[dogchow108]

The earth is a trapezoid balanced on the head of an arthritic duck billed platypus?? i knew it!!

okay, okay okay, ill talk.....

[dogchow108]

i generally agree with pretty much all of what doc wrote on the initial post, but i wont really comment on that stuff unless its directly related to my example cuz i think a lot of it is really kinda "granted" for people who have really given it any hard thought.

this is the part of my experience i will use to illustrate my point.

my last school....con artist mania, the guy was a complete liar and a scammer. but you know what? he was very good at sparring, and he was pretty well known in Oklahoma martial arts circles (though i wouldnt say thats much to be proud of). anyway, this guy overemphasized the **** out of sparring. mainly i think it was because the core students (his buddies) liked it and would have lost interest (like you said doc) if it went away...and a lot of the other students (like myself) "liked" it to get on the teacher's good side. quite predictably, the larger, more babboon-like stuents who in my sincere opinion were also the ones i think had a generally lower IQ than the rest of the students and actually really laughed naturally like beavis and butthead- those guys enjoyed the clobber-fest tag games we liked to call sparring. i got raped, because i am small. i will not go up to a guy and try to tag him on the face or expect him to collapse because i hit his stomach. ill try to break arms and legs through standing grappling techniques, trip people with shuai chiao methods, gouge, grab...stuff i like to think is actually more "martial" than tagging each other like a game and is more likely to happen in a fight. ALL fights ive seen had some kind of wrestling-nature component and have never looked anything like any sparring ive seen (yes, even schools who claim to "train you for the streets" by having some mullet-rocking redneck tell about how awesome of a bar-fighter he is...even if he dosent have a mullet...anyway...)


to get to the point...my teacher liked to make it a point that we ONLY USE TECHNIQUES FROM OUT FORMS.....great that means we used about 2% of what we actually learned....that being backhands, front and side kicks....basically the stuff you can learn in kickboxing, im sure you guys know what im talking about. well...at some point, he says ok, now at this level you can grab, and grapple.

jesus!

i tore the **** out of people. i never got tapped out even ONCE. im not proud of that because i think ground fighting is useless in a realistic fight scenario....but i seriously started to beat the **** out of people. so what did all the year and a half of clobber-sparring do for the meatheads i was sparring against? D I C K, thats what it did. and this is just one of my own scenarios...im not saying the situation is unique to me, im just saying i have an arsenal of other reasons.

anyway, ive talked about this subject ad-nauseum before, and it generally circulates around my idea that sparring is a game, not a training tool and is really kinda useless in turning people into fighters. i just dont like to really argue this subject because it always ends up with me having this stupid high school debate-team style arguement with someone who just wants that kind of attention to make themselves feel smart. i hope you guys understand my apprehension earlier in explaining myself.


DC

[dogchow108]

PS juszczec......who said you cant make claims without backing them up?

[J Tubridy]

My first experience with sparring came when I joined the "Karate Club" in high school.
Basically, we got together on Saturday's, warmed up for about half an hour with
some bodyweight type exercises and stretches, then sparred with whomever the
instructor assigned. The matches would go for varying time lengths (aproximately
3 - 5 minutes). The students would take turns sparring in various combinations. There
was some instruction in basic kicking and striking techniques, but for the most part, it was
learn what not to do by getting hit. I stayed in the club for two years but eventually left
due to all of the injuries that occured (i.e. quite a few bruises, some broken bones,
several knockouts etc.). While I can see the value of full contact fighting, to take
beginners and throw them in to this environment was reckless to say the least. The key
here was the instructor. He really had no business teaching and/or supervising.
The only reason he lasted as long as he did was because nobody else was there on
Saturday to see what was going on.

Moving on.

I next joined a Tae Kwon Do school. The sparring here consisted of trying to kick eachother
in the stomach. In all fairness to this school, I was only there for a short period of time
(about 6 months). So, the sparring may have evolved into something more.

Why did I leave the school you ask? An excellent question. One day I showed up about
20 minutes early for a class. The instructor, Master Kim, (When you become a Master
in Tae kwon Do do you automatically change your last name to Kim or Park?) invited me into
his office to see a videotape of him performing exorcisms. I just assumed Master Kim meant
exercises. Well, as the video started, I saw two men, each holding one arm of a third man.
Then Master Kim appeared. The man who was being held was hissing and spitting. Master
Kim began yelling at the man. This went on for a while. The "possessed" man eventually
calmed down, appeared to go into some kind of daze/trance and was eventually revived by the
Master. Wow!!! I was sure this was a joke. I just figured, ok, some Tae Kwon Do hazing. I
expected my fellow students to burst in laughing. That didn't happen. When the tape finished,
there was a dead silence. The Master looked at me and asked, "Do you accept Jesus Christ
as your savior." At this point I thought great, I'm on Candid Camera. Hi mom, hi dad. Again,
silence. No one letting me in on the joke. Thats because it wasn't a joke. I looked at Master
Kim and asked "Are you serious?". He was not pleased with my response. We went are separate
ways.

Sorry, I went way off topic with that. Kind of funny though.

After the TKD experience, I took a little time off to train on my own.

Back in the saddle.

My next move was to Jiu-Jitsu. I thought this was it. The first style
I studied was a combination of Hakko Ryu, Chito Ryu, basic
striking and kicking, and some judo throws for good measure.
There were two types of sparring in this school. The first method
was essentially judo randori. I really enjoyed this, although we
didn't do much of it.

The second method was a bit more involved. All of the students would form
a circle. Each student took a turn being in the center of the circle. The person in
the middle was attacked by the other students. There was no set order
as to who would attack first. Initially, the attacks would come one at a time.
As you progressed through the ranks/belts, you were attacked by more
than one person at a time. The nature of the attacks was determined by your
rank/belt. The attacks always started out with "kata" at your particular level
(Note: The "kata" I was taught involved a response to a particular attack.
For example, if you were to grab my gi/jacket lapel, I would simulate a strike to
your neck, lock the wrist you grabbed me with and take you down.) After, the
kata attacks, students could attack with strikes or kicks. Most people
attacked with a jab or a hook to the head. There were few if any kicks.

I stayed at this school for close to 5 years. In addition to what I mentioned
above, I also did alot of ukemi/falling. One of the instructors always used to
say, make the ground your friend. When it comes to sparring, training your
body to relax and fall without getting seriously hurt is a great advantage.
I would certainly avoid going to the ground at all costs, but I don't fear it.

Due to a job change and a relocation I left this school. Honestly, I also felt
something was missing. I liked the school and the people, but the
training method seemed to be lacking. I didn't feel I was progressing, nor
did I see the potential for further substantive growth. I was not sure what
I wanted, but I was confident this wasn't it.

Next stop Brazilian JiuJitsu

...uh oh, the baby is crying. I gotta go spar with a hungry
teething 10 month old. God, Buddha, whoever, send a little strength/chi my way.

To be continued.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by dogchow108
PS juszczec......who said you cant make claims without backing them up?

Nobody did.

However, I'm always interested when someone voices a stong opinion completely opposite to my own. I've found if I can understand their reasons, I'll learn something.

And I did. Specifically, how not to approach sparring.

For a long time, I didn't understand sparring's place in training. I've come to think its a drill to teach timing, reaction under pressure, when to advance, when to retreat and when to attack. Its not about fighting, but practicing the reactions that you can use when you fight.

In the MA world, especially the karate world, I'm in the minority.

As for your former teacher's methods, well to each their own. Although I do enjoy sessions where you increase the intensity to more than what you normally do, I don't recommend people train like that more than a few times a month. Even then, you've got to be extrememly careful.

Thanks for the explanation.

Mark

[dogchow108]

i like that thing you said about training reactions.....this is the way we train at my school. my teacher frowns on sparring, but im not sure really why...the thing is, the techniques we use are really not meant for sparring. and i know martial artists get heat for saying that they cant use their techniques in sparring, but thats just how it is. martial techniques are meant to become instinctual responses that END A GODDAMN CONFLICT...not make it last 30 minutes. if you try to spar using these techniques, one of a few things will happen:

you will have a different sparring partner every bout

you will have frequent trips to the hospital

your techniques will become sloppy and you will develop a lack of efficiancy due to restraining yourself in order to avoid the above two things

you will lose confidence in your techniques

many more...

dont get me wrong. when someone asks me to spar, i spar but for recreational purposes. as for training? i think there is nothing worse you can do to yourself. there is nothing sparring teaches you that well-practiced drills cannot. also, when you do drills the right way, they eliminate all the kick-boxing-like techniques that most people can probably use well enough before you ever join a school to begin with, and what happens is you end up focusing on the actual stuff you are learning in the cirriculum. not only that but its done in a way that makes you more and more familiar with the movement, and thus more and more likely to be able to put it to use if you need to.


as for my former teacher...he had no business teaching in the first place...and in my opinion he crossed some safety lines for beginners and other types of students way too often.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by dogchow108
i like that thing you said about training reactions.....

Thanks

I'm going to continue strictly for the sake of discussion for the readership. I'm not trying to change your mind, dogchow108. Please don't take my comments as such an effort. If no one posts any questions/comments about the below, then I'll shut up.

my teacher frowns on sparring, but im not sure really why

Could be lots of reasons. I suspect though, he doesn't like the 21st century Western sparring paradigm and has other methods he's more comfortable with.

As long as you are getting what you want, his reasons don't really matter.

...the thing is, the techniques we use are really not meant for sparring. and i know martial artists get heat for saying that they cant use their techniques in sparring, but thats just how it is.

Frankly, I doubt any striking technique was originally invented to
not hurt someone. I'll go way out on a limb and add lots of throwing and joint locking techniques as well.

However, someone along the line saw the need to do their thing against an semi-uncooperative partner and recognized the benefits of such practice.

martial techniques are meant to become instinctual responses that END A GODDAMN CONFLICT...not make it last 30 minutes.

Agreed. So the "rules" used when sparring need to reflect this.

if you try to spar using these techniques, one of a few things will happen:

you will have a different sparring partner every bout

you will have frequent trips to the hospital

your techniques will become sloppy and you will develop a lack of efficiancy due to restraining yourself in order to avoid the above two things

I disagree. Don't make it a 30 minute round. 2 minutes at a time should be enough to give both participants sufficient practice. After that, switch partners. Although it may sound like you need a whole roomful of people, I've found you can get good practice with just 3 people (yourself and 2 others).

You can avoid hurting your partners by developing "control." I define it as the ability to throw any technique at full power, 100% commitment and stop it on contact. I don't know if this is a uniquely Japanese concept or not.

For some strange reason, the way to develop this is to hit stuff as hard as you can. My original dojo didn't do this. When I switched to my current school, I had reasonable control by my old school's standards-in other words I didn't send anyone to the hospital or knock anyone out.

However, after I'd been with the new group for a few years and adopted their training methods (hitting focus mitts, kicking shields and heavy bags full blast) my control developed to the point that I could stop a technique on contact or send it thru someone.

dont get me wrong. when someone asks me to spar, i spar but for recreational purposes.

Sure. It can be fun. Sparring can be done recreationally or with as much intensity as you and your training partners are willing to withstand.

as for training? i think there is nothing worse you can do to yourself. there is nothing sparring teaches you that well-practiced drills cannot. also, when you do drills the right way

I guess I agree. The only reason I hedge is sparring has been part of my training since I began.

they eliminate all the kick-boxing-like techniques that most people can probably use well enough before you ever join a school to begin with

All I can say is this wasn't me when I first began training. I could do a jab and a haymaker. Maybe.

and what happens is you end up focusing on the actual stuff you are learning in the cirriculum.

For this you need a curriculum. Karate may have had one once, but I think by the 1950s karate became kind of a catalog of movements. Done one way, they could be used for exercise. Done differently, they could be done to hurt people.

Mark

[dogchow108]

dont worry, i never take responses as an offecse.


we actually dont do much striking...most of the techniques and transitins in Xiao Jia (and i suspect most other taiji) actually are not striking, but a few of them are. the thing is, they have some very difficult training concepts behind actual strikes because there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. for example, striking is where you are really vulnerable, because of the balance shifts involved. in most sparring you do, try to think about hits you've done that have really hurt or stunned someone...they probably ALL involve some type of compromise in balance. most of the stuf we've done to this point in my class are not strikes...they are captures of joints or techniques to be able to shift an opponents balance and get out of holds or "wrestling" type grasps that often happen in close range fighting. contrary to popular belief, the really difficult techniques, i think, are the supposedly simple strikes because it takes a long time to develop the skill to put real, i guess what my teacher would call "internal" power into them. an example of this in external systems is the skill of "tong bei" chi utilization. strikes are simple until you start thinking about them. it kind of goes from saying strikes are simple and locks and such are not, then you say wow, theres more to striking than i thought...and then you go back and say wait i missed out this concept in locks and stuff...and it kinda goes like that. so what we do in our class,,,the seemingly sophisticated grabs, locks, bends, breaks and whatnot, are actually the ones that are easier and more likely to get off due to the up-close, in your face contact-nature of fights.

anyway, why am i talking about striking? because that is the very MEAT of sparring, of every sparring ive ever seen...this also leads to misconceptions about martial artists abilities. this, by the way, has to do with the "controling your power" fad in sparring. people see martial artists spar, and wonder why they train joint locks and stuff like that if the other guy seems to punch so fast that you cant catch his arm. the answer to this is very simple...because its a TAG FEST. in many of these cases, its almost pointless to ever deflect shots that come to you in sparring because the hits are designed to be watched, not to hurt someone- they wouldnt even phase you if you got hit right in the face. you might just be a little surprized or stunned because of the fact that, well, you got hit in the face...but it wouldnt do a damn thing to someone on adrenaline. in sparring, the hits are really fast and the hitter never loses balance doing them...this is because there is no POWER behind them. they're just flashy, olympic TKD-style taps that earn points. this is another problem in sparring. you end up with a placebo effect because you think your hits matter..."Oh, i tagged the guy right in his face" yet he kept going and threw you on your face within the following seconds. which one really did anything worth notice? really what it does is water down a potentially incredible skill to be worked on, and which cannot be developed in tap-fests.

you're not going out on a limb by using lots of throwing and joint locking techniques, you're just not sparring stupidly (something i'm not sure is completely possible). at least you are trying to do something creative but you can only do so much of it sparring.

Also, you can spar for 2 minutes at a time, yea, but i bet you dont just quit after two minutes do you? even then the reality is, you are not doing the techniques in an intimate enough way to understand what you are capable of. and even then because of the nature of sparring, theres simply too much you cant really use in it. its actually kind of interesting, the difference between saying "that wont work in a fight" and "that wont work in sparring". I'm not saying you shouldnt spar, im just saying i think its a very bad training tool. all that happens is that you end up using stuff you would just naturally think to do.

you give yourself too little credit. i have yet to meet a person in martial arts that i dont think would know to at least punch hard and in a few diferent ways if not combine it with kicks in a fight that they were actually trying to win. really, this is PEOPLE we're talking about. no other animal has perfected the art of conlict as well as we have. we are the only animals that go to war and kill as many of our own species as we do. even if our being humans dosent drive it, our being animals does it too. we strive on conflict. our lives are made interesting by it. trust me, if you wanted to, you could utilize yourself with the basic garbage moves you most likely end up doing in generic sparring.

anyway, yea.

this is turning out to be funner than i thought.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by dogchow108
dont worry, i never take responses as an offecse.

Good, because this is one of the more interesting threads I've run across in a while.

we actually dont do much striking...most of the techniques and transitins in Xiao Jia (and i suspect most other taiji) actually are not striking, but a few of them are.

Do y'all do strikes to soften the opponent up for joint punishment and takedowns? If not, how do you distract them?

the thing is, they have some very difficult training concepts behind actual strikes because there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

Do you mean striking in general or striking in your style? What training concepts do you mean?

for example, striking is where you are really vulnerable, because of the balance shifts involved. in most sparring you do, try to think about hits you've done that have really hurt or stunned someone...they probably ALL involve some type of compromise in balance.

No, I can't say they have. If a technique lands but you are off balance and/or not close enough to follow up or get smacked at the same time as your strike lands, its not acknowledged. The emphasis is hitting them while using the angles and shifting to avoid getting hit yourself.

contrary to popular belief, the really difficult techniques, i think, are the supposedly simple strikes because it takes a long time to develop the skill to put real, i guess what my teacher would call "internal" power into them.

I struggled with striking with proper timing.

strikes are simple until you start thinking about them. it kind of goes from saying strikes are simple and locks and such are not, then you say wow, theres more to striking than i thought...and then you go back and say wait i missed out this concept in locks and stuff...and it kinda goes like that.

Isn't that one of the paradoxes in MA? Everything is simple but incredibly complex all at the same time.

so what we do in our class,,,the seemingly sophisticated grabs, locks, bends, breaks and whatnot, are actually the ones that are easier and more likely to get off due to the up-close, in your face contact-nature of fights.

Interesting. I've always been taught to hit them first in order to buy some time for non striking attacks. You've got to remember this was the advice a long time jujutsu guy was giving to a bunch of cross training karate people. He knew, as did most of us, we'd always be better strikers than anything else and we'd better rely on that.

anyway, why am i talking about striking? because that is the very MEAT of sparring, of every sparring ive ever seen...

Well, no training method is perfect

Maybe one day we'll integrate striking and grappling into one all inclusive sparring drill. For now, we keep them separate.

this also leads to misconceptions about martial artists abilities. this, by the way, has to do with the "controling your power" fad in sparring. people see martial artists spar, and wonder why they train joint locks and stuff like that if the other guy seems to punch so fast that you cant catch his arm. the answer to this is very simple...because its a TAG FEST.

That comes back to what the person running the show recognizes and rewards. If its snappy technique with lots of speed and no power/penetration, then that's what your students will produce.

As far as applying joint locks, it depends on how the other guy has been trained to react. I don't know how true it is, but the great emphasis on recoilling techniques is supposed to protect you from getting trapped and locked.

I either do joint locks when I wrestle or when drilling techniques against single attacks. Even then, I stick to the trap/counter then punish the joints paradigm.

in many of these cases, its almost pointless to ever deflect shots that come to you in sparring because the hits are designed to be watched, not to hurt someone

Well, if they guy in charge accepts (IMNSHO) poor quality strikes then you will learn to throw poor quality strikes.

they wouldnt even phase you if you got hit right in the face. you might just be a little surprized or stunned because of the fact that, well, you got hit in the face...but it wouldnt do a damn thing to someone on adrenaline.

How an andrenalized fighter reacts is another problem. The best thing, IMO, to do is concentrate on destroying the balance before doing anything else.

Unfortunately for me, if my training partners hit me in the face (or anywhere else for that matter) it phases me.

in sparring, the hits are really fast and the hitter never loses balance doing them

Well, in the end that's been the intent behind all the karate I've done. Hit them as hard as possible and stay on balance at all times.

"Oh, i tagged the guy right in his face" yet he kept going and threw you on your face within the following seconds. which one really did anything worth notice?

That's one of the reasons its difficult to integrate striking and non striking into one sparring drill. If anyone comes up with a whiz bang solution, please let me know.

really what it does is water down a potentially incredible skill to be worked on, and which cannot be developed in tap-fests.

IMNSHO, if you are having tap fests, you'd be better off hitting the heavy bag.

you're not going out on a limb by using lots of throwing and joint locking techniques, you're just not sparring stupidly (something i'm not sure is completely possible).

What is stupid, I think, is not being ble to recognize the limitations of any given drill.

at least you are trying to do something creative but you can only do so much of it sparring.

Agreed.

Also, you can spar for 2 minutes at a time, yea, but i bet you dont just quit after two minutes do you?

No, but heaven knows sometimes I'd like to sit down

even then the reality is, you are not doing the techniques in an intimate enough way to understand what you are capable of. and even then because of the nature of sparring

True. That's why you can't rely on sparring as the only type of training drill you do.

you give yourself too little credit. i have yet to meet a person in martial arts that i dont think would know to at least punch hard and in a few diferent ways if not combine it with kicks in a fight that they were actually trying to win.

I thought you meant me, before training. After I started, yes, I could hit someone. Choosing the right time, that was a different problem.

this is turning out to be funner than i thought.

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself

Mark

[J Tubridy]

My last post was in January. I meant to get back sooner, but such is life.
I've really enjoyed this thread. A quick note, my point in writing is to share
the various sparring experiences I have had thus far in my martial arts
journey. No more, no less. I began studying Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu
several years ago. The first thing I noticed was the informal nature of the
the training. There was none of the bowing and ceremony I had become
accustomed to in other clubs/schools. I didn't mind the bowing and formality
of the other schools, but I found the environment in the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school to be more
inviting.

Another difference which made a big impression on me was the instructor's
level of involvement. In the other schools I attended the instructors did very
little sparring. Essentially, they stood back, observed and offered constructive
feedback regarding technique, balance, etc. And this was very helpful.
However, the BJJ instructor took it a step further. He would routinely spar with
students and offer advice while you were sparring. There was a sense at the BJJ
school that the instructor talked the talk and walked the walk. This was missing
at the other schools, albeit in varying degrees.

Before I address sparring directly, it is important to note that I am still studying
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because I enjoy it. This point has been made before, but it is
so important and basic, it bears repeating. Find the art you enjoy and do it. Life
is too short and our training time too limited not to enjoy what we are doing. Ok
Sparring.

Sparring (a.k.a rolling) , is crucial to the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. In the book Brazilian
Jiu-Jitsu Theory and Technique, the author notes "Only when an effective means of
imprinting the techniques into the minds and movements of the students is utilized is a
genuinely effective fighting style created. This is only possible when students apply their
techniques at full power on a fully resisting opponent." Now, bear in mind, its not all go for
broke sparring. There are certainly levels of resistance a partner can give in order to facilitate
learning new techniques as well as addressing specific areas which pose a particular problem
(e.g. escaping from positions, dominating and submitting an opponent from certain positions etc.).
The key however, is the ability to go for it. Granted, the sparring is within a certain context
(e.g. with a gi, without a gi, then introducing striking and kicking into the mix, emphasizing
self-defense vs. a more sport oriented scenario etc.). What I find extremely satisfying and instructive,
is the immediate feedback a resisting opponent gives ( whether that resistance be at 100% or
to some other agreed upon degree). This feedback gives me a higher level of confidence in the
techniques I'm using, and in my ability to perform them. It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't,
I find out immediately, and can adjust accordingly. This is the most significant difference between the BJJ sparring and sparring in the other schools I attended. Neither I nor the techniques of the other schools
were put to such a test.

With sparring I think it is crucial to begin with the end in mind. Where do you want to go, and what is
your plan to get there. Granted, your motivation and goals are going to change with time, but without
a plan, you're doing a fifty yard dash in a forty yard hallway. That can't end well. When I first started in
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I felt like a ship adrift in an ocean with no clear direction. It was a struggle to find my
way but it was well worth the effort. Before I started at my current school I came across an article by Roy Harris. In th article he laid out a road map for progressing through Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The road map went like this:

Positional Escapes
Positional Dominance
Mechanics of Submisions
Specific Attribute Development
Positional Counters and Reversals
Submission Escapes and Counters

In addition to the above, he laid out a "Panoramic View" of BJJ which included technical knowledge, physical attributes and strategy. Having this framework to organize my training in general and my sparring specifically was very helpful. Whatever your chosen art, write out your goals and create a road map of how you plan to get there. The more specific you are, the sooner you will see results. Well , my daughter is out of the highchair and going to eat my Bonsai, gotta go. Train to live, live to train. Later.

[zachsan]

sparring as we know it today is an invention of the 20th century, especially the creation of martial arts with an emphasis on sparring, and the increasing importance of it in previously existing martial arts. why is it, then, that this all-important training tool was virtually absent from, or at least not nearly as important to, the curriculums (is that a word?) of traditional MA schools that were consistently involved in life-or-death situations, like revolutions or to-the-death matches?

sparring is fun and all, but i think it's a mistake to see it as anything more than a very, very loose approximation of a real fight. people seem to see sparring as a good-enough simulation of a real fight for the purposes of training, and i see this as extremely dangerous.

the reason i say this is that there's just no simulating a real fight. there are just too many variables. how many opponents? will they be armed? if they are, will you know it? what are your goals; protecting yourself or protecting someone or something else in addition? how well is the environment lighted? is there broken glass all over the floor? the list of possible situations is endless. oh, and by the way, you don't have time to think because you're high on adrenaline and slightly drunk, and your opponent is high on adrenaline and speed.

i think the old masters recognized the chaotic nature of fights and the impossibility of preparing for all of these situations. so, instead of coming up with as many scenarios as they could and training them all, they stuck to the basics - knowing your body and how it moves, training your body's natural weapons, and training the use of other weapons that you may come across. they didn't focus their training on putting one student up against another in an open, fair environment, because they rightfully thought that this would prejudice the students' training and cause them to be ill-prepared in actual situations. instead, forms were born.

so, in my opinion, sparring (any kind of sparring or sport MA) might be great for recreation, but shouldn't be taken seriously at all, unless, of course, all you really want to be able to do is spar well and win tournaments (in that case, more power to ya). call me a traditionalist, but in this area at least, i think the old ways really are best.

- zach

[zachsan]

of course, if we were in the military (a military in which CQC was still very important), we just might do the opposite, and think up as many possible scenarios as we could and train them all. that's pretty much what the military does today.

the thing is, paradoxically, it's easier to train situations closer to real life with guns. that is, you kick down a door, three cardboard targets pop out from around corners, you shoot them all as quickly and accurately as possible. later on, based on the time between the targets popping out and your bullets hitting them, your trainers decide whether or not you were fast enough. seems pretty simple. but you can't train CQC against cardboard cut-outs. you would need live, resisting opponents, and even if weapons are taken out of the mix, to "train like you fight" (which you do with a gun) would at least mean heavy hospitilzation for everyone involved in the exercise. so, again, it's pretty much impossible to do practically.

this has been a tangent.

- zach

[doc]

It's not fair to compare BJJ with karate, or other styles of martial arts, with respect to "imitating real fights".

Karate, gong fu, aikido, etc, involves movements that can genuinely hurt one's opponent. In BJJ, you can spar until you hold someone (and before they get hurt), in gong fu, if one were to use one's techniques, as they were meant to be used, people would get damaged, to say the least.

Can't compare them. Two different things, in my opinion. I've done some BJJ (very little), and was impressed with it. But it's easy to spar in BJJ, and "beat" your opponent, than it is in gong fu, without hurting someone.