Sparring concepts

[daodejing]

Excellent point. I've done years and years of competition style "sparring" in judo, and if anyone ever attacked me in an alleyway and I couldn't avoid the attack except to block it, my first reaction would likely be to kick out my attacker's closest knee. You can't really practice that with your friends. Not if your friends enjoy being able to walk for the rest of their lives. Since I haven't developed my godly qi control and emission ablities to the level of sifu WKK, I have to settle for simple yet brutally effective techniques like destroying someone's knee, or executing a fingerbreak in order to extract myself from a life threatening situation. This is not exactly legal to train in sparring. I've never heard of any method of sparring where kicks to the legs were allowed. But its one of the most effective self defense techniques available to you (assuming you have trained long enough to develop a good kick). No system of sparring is anything like real fighting. Most fights do not start with both opponents facing each other in an open ring. And even fewer fights occur between people with mutual respect for each other's health. When one individual is much more skilled than his opponent he can afford to have more concern for his opponents health (assuming the opponent wishes him ill) But there's an old saying in training chin na which holds to all fighting "To be merciful to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself." Sparring is important, but it's only one tool in your training toolbox.

[Xiaobeeno]

Ok, I'll throw in this little bit of my personal history and see what people make of it...

I've been training in a contemporary "hybrid" mix of gongfu - nothing traditional - for 7 years. I was involved in sparring from the start. We use a type of sparring where the emphasis is on good technique and correct execution of movement rather than focusing on scoring points (although ,my ego and for the most part other peoples egos' liked to score points). I got caught up in the whole aesthetics of the sparring, I spent to much time worrying about how my technique looked rather than if it was actully any good.

Then, after about 3 or 4 years training I got attacked on the street. Some guys who were high on something just layed into me for no reason as they were walking past. I gave as good as I got, but after 4 years training, I thought that I should have been able to defend myself better. That was the turning point for me. I started to actually worry about "being good" rather than "looking good".

I completely agree with something Zach said in one of his posts - "i think the old masters recognized the chaotic nature of fights and the impossibility of preparing for all of these situations. so, instead of coming up with as many scenarios as they could and training them all, they stuck to the basics - knowing your body and how it moves, training your body's natural weapons" - that was how my training changed for me, more about training my body, my mind, overall my effectiveness as a martial artist.

Hence my opinions on sparring, in particular tournaments. I've nothing against either, but I do beleive that the individual should really look at what he/she wants, and whether they're training is effective for such goals. More importantly I think the individual should not allow themselves to be fooled as to their abilities, and not to under estimate a potential situation, otherwise they could find themselves in a situation that they can't get out of safely, such as facing 2 opponents that have got so much chemicals coursing through them that no morals or conscience apply to them

Amitabha

[zachsan]

not sure i want to go there, but i will, because i'm bored, so...

maybe there are masters who, with a combination of luck and skill, can handle 4 PCP-fueled maniacs without having to running away. but the natural, instinctual weapons available to the average human are formidale enough, even with no training, that when you're facing multiple opponents, it's good to run.

(edit) unless you have a gun.

- zach

[daodejing]

The best weapon against someone on alot of PCP (and don't ask, but I know this from personal experience) is a calm, soothing voice (that was also in a situation with several moderatly sober people and one drugged out aggressive person, not one totally sober person and a small pack of drugged out aggressive folks, but the principle still applies). Also make no sudden movements. Gunshots will only piss them off. Police officers have gotten punched by a suspect on pcp after emptying full clips into said suspect. If you can't calm them down with words, and they attack, break one of their legs and then get away faster than they can limp after you.

[zachsan]

you see? there's a prime example a little piece of information that could help you out more than years of sparring.

[Xiaobeeno]

Yeah, when I hink back about how much time I spent fullfilling my ego through sparring, and how much time I could have spent training my stancework and footwork as to make myself surer on my feet, and how much time I could have spent practicing realistic techniques, I think the outcome of my little situation could have been very different.

Not to mention the fact I was always a damn good runner, hey dao, bet I could put more ground between me and a limping PCP aggressor in 10 seconds than you could!

But seriously, I think whilst practicing realistic techniques there is a drawback that sometimes you can't carry them through to completion in training due to the effect it may have on your training partner - unless they're on PCP of course!

What are peoples' views on San Shou/Sanda,? I mean from my point of view it has a lot of the benefits of sparring in that it conditions the body, trains reflexes, it can fulfill egos (or shatter them). But it also has the realistic touch that if you bugger up, or you haven't trained your techniques well, you will get hurt. Although there is a big difference between full contact fighting in a sanda ring and being in a situation on the street. I mean, at least in the ring there's a ref who "should" stop things if they get out of hand.

[doc]

Remember, sanda has some traditional Shaolin gong fu moves built into it. Unlike boxing and Muay Thai (both of which I also train in).

[shaolinstylee]

I like san da.. prob. one of the best stand up fighting venues now... I love the fact that throws are perfectly legal.

[Vasuva]

Hey,
I'm new on this thread, but since you guys started mentioning Sanda, I was wondering if you could answer some questions about it. There's this website: http://crane.50megs.com/ that has some very strong opinions about the efficiency of Sanda sparring vs. kung fu and other famous arts. What everyone's been writing on this thread is very normal. Roughly 50% support or do not bash sparring and the other half do.

My personal opinion goes like this. I believe there was sparring back in the good old "ancient" days. Stories from Huang Fei-Hung taking challenges to Po Chi Lam circulate well with immigrants from Canton and Fu Shan. Some stories from my grandparents also involve legends that the 5 sacred schools of China (Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, etc) sparred each other for some sort of honor. While these are simply stories, the chances of all of them being crap is small....all exaggerations arise from something. Anyway, the sparring I see now is worthless. Don't take me wrong, there are uses to training with a buddy without prearranged forms...it's just that modern sparring is worthless. I agree with the touch concept and the argument against UFC that not all fights end up on the ground.

Again, just my opinion. Don't come after my family for it. j/k you guys are pretty civil here

[doc]

Excellent post. I think modern sparring is useless also.

Oh, and welcome to the madness that we call russbo.com.

[kirvixus]

this thread is kind of funny. surprised I didn't find it earlier. anyway I, Starglasses Man, will throw in my two cents.
I've never really been involved in martial arts other than maybe 1 month of judo when I was 7. however I can relate to this. I took piano lessons for 12 years and I guess you could call each time period (baroque, romantic, impressionistic etc.) a different form. well you sure as hell don't sit down and learn a song by telling someone "tell me which keys to play, no no don't tell me the names of the keys just show me where to put my hands". I had kids doing this to me in school. they all knew I played piano and wanted to know how to play the mission impossible theme one day. I tried to expalin which notes to play but they just didn't care about the fundamentals. I guess there are a lot of similar situations. you need to know theory, form, expression, timing, and accuracy before you can do something well. you will never be able to realistically apply skills without the knowledge of the fundamentals. I think that's the problem with sparring too. if you've just had 2 or 3 lessons and your teacher wants you to spar, you really probably aren't much more prepared than when you first walked in there. if anything you will learn to do it the wrong way thus not learning it at all. I think the first thing people need is more patience and a better attention span otherwise like doc said all the good masters will dissappear into the wilderness. I know quite a bit more about patience now having taken piano lessons for 12 years. now if I could just work on that attent............................TV's on gotta go.

[dadoo]

On that piano thing -As well as some people wanting to learn kungfu - It all about instant gratification. Don't want to have to put all that work into it. Where can I get a bag of instant kung fu or the 10 second microwave version. Maybe just but one of doc's instant monk kits.....

[zachsan]

vasuva -

that's exactly my point. old 'sparring', at least from what we hear about it, wasn't about training, and was about proving pre-existing skills, by putting two accomplished martial artists from two different schools against each other in a match for honor. and from what i understand, it was much more brutal than what we call sparring today. it would have more in common with a samurai duel or a gunfight (without swords or guns) than the UFC or a boxing match. that is, it would take a lot of courage just to show up, and you wouldn't know beforehand whether you'd be walking away or not.

- zach

[agreenknight]

I can't if sparring is right for other people or not but only what my experience has been. I've been sparring off and on since I was a purple belt, about a year once a week. I like it. I usually do it inbetween the weapons class, and the regular karate class.

Usually the sparring session last for about 45 minutes with about 15 minutes of warm ups. Then we split into two teams. A person from each team spars. The sparring depends on the belt level also. Black Belt sparring is harder hitting. Also, they have to control their attacks to a lower belt. The teacher says he wants to see a good point from them. I agree with what vasuva said about it being a result and not the means. My teacher also says from time to time what they can do to improve their sparring.

Yeah, it might not be ful contact, but it's something. It's my own personal opinion that it's bad to take hits. I was watching a show about a soccer player who had sports injuries. It's very difficult to know when head injuries have occured. What I wonder is, will someone be ready to be hit? Also would the insurance cost be prohibabtive.

Personally, I like different ways of sparring. For example once my teacher said the people with the lowest points will win. We have also done, multiple people sparring, and with obstacles. I've also done some weapons sparring which requireds alot of control. I'm looking forward to sparring with a nunchunka. We have also done the circles. I do alot of training in forms, and other things too.

I remember reading a interview with a shaolin monk, about a contest where they sparried. The students divided into two teams, the north and south and sparred. He said it looked like the movie The Master. I can find it if anyone looks.

I've also seen where some of the younger kids, just kick. I think it has developed into using more punches just atleast to fake, so they are not predictable. I think it has helped me to develop my kicks a little. Also it's harder to take me down.

I think this Sandra sounds interesting.

[agreenknight]

On another note, my teacher doesn't push to much tournament sparring. When I asked about doing it he kind of discourage me from doing it. Although he encourages forms. There is also a sparring techniques class at the school I go to. I have also seen it when someone beat me three months ago and they still brag about it.