question about li peng's classes

[zachsan]

lol, you're very right, lipster. maybe not so plausible after all.

that said, i wouldn't be surprised if some of them tried it.

[Lipster]

Lol, I'm sure there'll be a video up in their gallery soon, demonstrating the very thing.

Mortal,

Ahem, here goes..

I've been watching this thread for a while, and I think you make a few valid points and a few not so valid ones. And a couple of things just don't add up.

You think hitting a heavy bag, or practicing a strike thousands of times for three hours straight is not traditional. I think the complete converse. I don't think you get more traditional than that. Ask yourself this. If you walked into a traditional training ground some years ago, chances are you’d find people in a cosy little guan, practicing whatever they’re working on over and over. Come back in a coupla hours, they’ll still be there, same place, same thing, over and over. Makes a quaint little picture. Contrast that to a fairly common modern macdojo. Everyone knows countless techniques for different make believe scenarios and mastered about fifteen weapons. [The only thing I’m ever gonna try and master is the staff. That’s it .] Put these people up against what I like to think of as a traditional fighter who has the kick of a work horse and there’s no chance, whip out all the techniques you like. You see the point I’m trying to illustrate? And while I’m saying that of course traditional isn’t just about ones muscles, what rings more traditional to you?

How many charming little Chinese stories are there of the student who goes to the master who then puts him through this boring ass hard work of rolling bamboo on his limbs, or brushing the floor a certain way or something...the guy tires of it after several years and eventually leaves in disgust protesting that ‘this isn’t fighting!’, to which the master responds with something like “You fool! I've been teaching you the secret art of so-and-so all this time, if only you would have realised!" The obvious underlying point to this is that perfection in gong fu, as with everything else is with long, unchanging, intensive, monotonous and when broken up, unsophisticated regimen.

Practicing kicking is not a fighting technique. With a statement like that it makes me wonder if you have ever really practiced true kung fu fighting. This is the problem with shaolin. It has been unfortunatly been reduced to kickboxing. Doing shaolin basics is not going to make you a superior fighter. True knowing how to kick is going to make you more formidable an opponent. If all you want is basic skills take a karate class it is much cheaper and you could brag to all your friends that your a blackbelt.

Yes you're right, there is more to it, at advanced levels, and I’m sorry to say you just seem to have had bad luck. I’ll get to that in a moment. However, you know the benefits and the necessity of the basics yet you still underestimate them. Five years intensive ‘old skool’ Shaolin training in basics is a minimum requisite if you wanna learn the 'real' Shaolin you refer to. I wonder what you’ve truly achieved in the past years - a hard and fast kick no doubt, and a swift fist. But, quite frankly, if you can make a statement like the above being the accomplished six year martial artist you are, then you might be good, but I know for a fact that you're not anywhere near your potential.

How does that traditional maxim go? Oh yeah, “The top is the basics; the basics are the top”

Secondly, do you ever look at it from the other perspective? I don't think you would deny you're someone who wants to get into the real nitty gritty stuff ahead of his time. Understandable and most people are so. Yet that's traditionally been frowned upon - again, understandably. If students decided they were ready when they felt like it, where would we be. But you want the traditional gong fu without the traditional norm that goes with it. Well bud, that's how it is. If you respond by saying you pay so you have a right to decide when or in which manner you are to be taught, well that defeats the whole purpose - that is how they teach, that is how they've always taught. They decide - I think that's why they're called the master and you the student. Too bad, I also think it’s generally understood Traditional Shaolin isn't for those who wanna kick ass in a couple of years.


Here's my take. Some things don't add up. I know you have a high standard and fair knowledge of gong fu; Gapingvoid Hugh spoke highly of you. It is because of this that a couple of things seem strange.

At risk of returning to the old, boring and well-worn subject, I believe most people have hugely distorted misconceptions about martial arts and fighting. I believe most of these misconceptions could be 'rectified’ by intelligent individuals who do not actually have to experience physical skirmishes to know certain facts of fighting/combat, and instead apply common sense in place of experience. For example, movie fighting. Fighting doesn't happen like it does in the movies, and an intelligent person can deduce this with common sense - he doesn't actually have to involve himself in fighting - he realises that it is choreographed and that it’s taken hundreds of takes to get it just right. All perfectly set up so it looks spontaneous. Yet loads of people think that that is what a fight on the street would look like. If they experienced a (or several) violent encounter themselves, they would rapidly see otherwise. Agreed? Pretty simple example.

It follows that the experienced martial artist would not be prone to the same, rather silly misconceptions of the uninitiated..

The following are just random points I picked up on. Firstly, you seem to claim that [some of] the monks are slightly misleading in what they teach. I suggest it is your own misconceptions that have got you pissed off. I'll explain why.

Those kicks are just for training. Along with the low stances but most monk masters won't tell you that. They don't tell you much of anything for that matter.

Okay, first off, don't say you don't have a grudge on them.

From what I've gathered from Wolf and here, your basic complaint is that the monks take you on promising that when they're done with you (you would do good to realise that) you will be a formidable fighter. After a while, you feel that they are not. So you move on.

You've been in gong fu how long? After having a small amount of experience with gong fu or fighting, it's readily apparent that the use of some of the stances, for example, is ridiculous in combat! I mean, with a little rational thinking, and a child’s understanding of body mechanics, it's self evident that the fashion in which certain stances are trained are exaggerated for maximum efficiency - low stances for nice looking performance, OR - wait for it - to make it more difficult. You know, hard work, effort, sweat, wrecking ones muscles, that little thing we call gong fu. And if you can work efficiently in a low stance, you can work extremely efficiently in a high stance. NO secret! Common sense! It's no one's fault if you have a claim on someone for your misconception. Your misconception being that low stancework is realistically applicable in a fight. They don't have to dispel your own misconceptions.

Again, no secret. I mean, Shi Yan Lei's DVD - it's just an introductory DVD to some sweet traditional gong fu, not an instructional video or anything - I'll quote him directly…

"Why do we begin with traditional punching techniques? Because martial arts is like building a house, and the traditional punching techniques are the good foundation. Your stance must be very low; your feet need grab the floor, and you need to feel stable. Your whole body works together, your legs, your hips and your waist in just one punch. Because the stance is so low you will soon feel very tired, so after, when you do modern punch and your stance is higher, then you will move much more quickly and feel more comfortable..."

Another quote from Yan Zi - "Forms contain useful knowledge." That is how he puts it. In other words, 'of course forms aren't actual fighting. Duh. Stop watching movies'.

I’m sorry, you were saying the monks don’t tell no one nothing? A DVD seems enough to suffice their need of publicising the aforementioned, deeply sacred and well kept secret of the Shaolin low stance...

Finally, I study with a monk. As far as forms go, we only study the first part of shao hong chuan. And even that we’re expected to practice in our own time. We only do it several times in class to correct any mistakes. That’s it, no other form practice in class. So what is it that I train in? Substitute useless movements?

Also I have never ever witnessed any trapping skills from the monks. That is why it looks like kickboxing when they fight.

Look harder.


However, what I’m confused about is Yan Ming. He does not teach how to fight or kick ass. Agreed. I’m not referring to his sparring classes, since I’ve heard conflicting reports whether those have even taken place, but lets not include the sparring classes. He teaches traditional gong fu without the sparring with a slightly wushuised twist. He stresses his Buddhist element very strongly and he goes to pains to try to make it clear that he teaches a form of Chan that is essentially physical, and that he does not primarily teach combat as such.

Now, I don’t see this any of this as negative. I have respect for the Sloan bro’s and wouldn’t belittle their master here. He just leans more towards teaching Chan then to combat. Arhat’s made it clear he goes to Yan Ming for spiritual cultivation. You do seem to view this in a negative light. Cos you wanna learn how to fight. And Yan Ming simply isn’t for that. Yanzi himself, who holds Yan Ming in high regard says ‘Yan Ming good for forms, Guolin good for fighting’

I am referring to what he teaches - of his personal ability I have no doubt – I’ve seen him, and anyway anyone who has fought Yan Lei has my respect.

You claim he is misleading. I disagree, he makes this very clear himself. He says specifically on his site that forms and fighting are not the same. And barring his sparring classes, forms is essentially what he teaches. How is that misleading? If some poor potential sucker were to join Yan Mings class, then he would be able to see with his own eyes that it wasn’t true fighting after the first several lessons, by Yan Ming’s own words. He’d see that ‘all we do is forms’. You have yet to explain how he is deceptive.

My question to you is, why the hell did you stay so long. If you were so well versed in street scuffles then you could have worked out that this is not fighting pretty soon. I walked in, said my hellos to Yan Ming and chatted to Arhat while watching the class. I could tell immediately it was different to Yanzis lessons. Much more form oriented. Much more Buddhist oriented. But that same old monk intensity was there. Don’t tell me you get the same feeling and workout at Sifu Grados’s place, cos I simply won’t believe you…

I have a quarter the experience you do in Shaolin – yet I could tell straight away that ‘more chi’ was more important to Yan Ming then the technicalities of the technique. Both attitudes have their place. And that’s Yan Ming – he’s into teaching Buddhism, not ass kicking.

That’s what I mean by you had bad luck. You simply chose the wrong school. Frustrating yeah, but live with it – you’ve taken enough out on them for your own original misconception. You shoulda bugged out after two months – I don’t see why you didn’t. As for the other monks, they seem to operate very differently from my own Shifu, so I cannot comment on them. But when you go a far as to say, ‘Shi this Shi that and Shi the other teaches like ****’, then I’m bound to think the issue’s with you. The one monk I do have access to is undoubtedly the hardest man I ever thought I’d meet. His fighting efficiency is unquestionable. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever read a statement anywhere to the contrary, on the net or anywhere else. I wonder what you’d think of Yanzis place – it’s so different to the other monks’ schools.

There’s a lot more to be said about technique versus comprehension of fighting principles, but man this post is too long. Maybe check out the Wahnam debates in the archives.

Peace

[zachsan]

geez.

i'm trying to tell you guys. getting drunk and hitting people over the head with beer mugs. that's as traditional as it gets!

[arhat]

Originally posted by mortal
When did I say traditional or non traditional? I don't have time to reveiw the whole thread.

Yan Ming is very powerful. So is Lipeng and Hengxin. But there are techniques and positioning in kung fu that allows you to defeat your opponent with out power. Also as you get older that power goes Bye bye. I have witnessed that first hand with all three masters. They are not as good as they were when they were younger.

There are 4 levels to power generation and application in Shaolin that I am aware of. Nobody should assume that because all they see is one or two that is all there is. Like it or not, but just because there is a money exchange they don't feel as though that entitles you to the whole enchalada. We've had a lot of conversations about that and it was something that never sat well with you.

Also, as to the actual Shaolin knowledge that is out there amongst the student body, people are really just scratching the surface. I don't know many people who have gone beyond the Hong forms. I don't know anyone who knows Pao Tui, for example, and there is alot of the kind of power generation you are talking about in that.

Anyhow, that is their culture, and it's their prerogative to keep or change as they see fit- they are the inheritors and the transmitters. It never bothered me because before I signed up I tried to know as much about what I was getting into as I could.

As to the deterioration of skills- I'm not sure how you qualify all three masters you've trained with not being as good as when they were younger. How do you judge such a thing? I can't speak for the other monks but I know SYM trains daily and has not lost any ability that I can see...his speed, power, flexibility...all these things are on point. He's even more ripped now than when he first got here. I've heard Guolin hasn't kept up with his training, but then if the stories of the early years carry any weight Yan Ming and Yan Chang taught him a lot of his Shaolin here in NYC.

I haven't witnessed any detrioration in ability with Yan Ming at all. Doc seems to have noticed De Yang switching focus but that doesn't mean there is a loss of ability. When De Yang was here he was full of chi, kicking, punching...

I have also held bags for SYM and trust me, he does not just "muscle" his kicks...I feel them coming out the other side of my ribs.

I would say a MT fighter muscles his kicks. There is a difference in the way the impact feels between an MT fighter and SYM's kicks. Usually people who use brute muscle at the level of training of the monks, daily, for hours, are crippled. Look at football players or gymnasts. I mean, if we're talking in generalities...

[mortal]

Lipster- Good post I respect your point. I am not a good enough writer to convey how I feel. Not ony that but you are not realizing the source of my frustration with Shaolin.

I trained because I loved it. Not to fight. I was already pretty good at that.

I like all the shaolin themes.

I saw Yan lei's tapes. He is an animal. I had him as my screen saver for a while. He is very impressive.
I guess that is not the kung fu path that is right for me.

If you want to feel Grados class energy. Come check it when your in town. Or watch it on line(webcam)The bottom line is I want a more internal style training based off structure. There is nothing to build up it is already there. I think overall a better fit for me.

I sparred on tape the other night against three guys one after the next with out rest. I'll try to put a clip up if I could get a copy. Then you will see what I mean.

[meattosser]

The moral of the story here folks, is that if you shove food up yer ass you can crap it out yer mouth.

[meattosser]

Oh yeah, and Mortal, your teacher seems to really teach some solid, no-nonsense Wing Chun fundamentals. Nice.
Is your lineage more into the Yip Man variety? Or the original Hung Fa Yi Shaolin lineage?

[mortal]

Meattosser-

That was a great southpark.


He really is a great practioner. He trained wingchun from a young age. Within the last decade he trained privately under Augustine Fong. There are no secret techs or level of power generation that he won't demonstrate on a daily basis.

Arhat- I did always have a problem with him holding back teaching. I find it odd that he has a school for ten years yet no one has scratched the surface. You only live once. You will be in an old age home before you start scratching surfaces. Due to the fact he collects $120 hard earned dollars a month from me. I want to be shown what he knows. Not just the surface. He treats us like we are a bunch of stupid Americans who don't have the capacity to learn. If I think he underestimates his students and their abilities. I pay money, he should teach. He is not in China anymore.

I know for a fact the reason he stretches out everything because of his girlfriend and her marketing genious. He used to teach much more freely in the beginning. Then she restricted it.

[shaolintiger]

Hey mortal,may be you are not so good to spar.
Wing chun is a stupid gong fu comparing to shaolin.Do you think that a wing chun master can fight with a shaolin monk? This is so funny,I think that if a shaolin student fought with a wing chun master,the student will win without thinking.
I dont know why wing chun exist anyway......you cant compare it to shaolin.

[Maestro]

hes right.. theres NO comparison..

sorry you and your thousands of wing chun brothers are outta luck

[doc]

I think Wing Chun is good stuff. I haven't done much of it, (I plan to when I return) but I like the different hand and arm movements. I don't think the stances are worth a ****, though, lol. I think the arm movements makes it an excellent accompaniment to Shaolin gong fu.

We also teach it in Vegas, at the school. (No advertisment intended).

[zachsan]

your styles all joke! i think its funny if shaolin master trying to stop my pint glass manipulation. only once over the head and its done! hahaha so funny!

[Maestro]

the more wing chun i see the more i look at it as a philosophy, moreso then the movements

merely because the movements are all found in my system, and the movements are pretty basic, but they are supposed to be if the history of it is correct

amitabha

[meattosser]

Originally posted by shaolintiger
Hey mortal,may be you are not so good to spar.
Wing chun is a stupid gong fu comparing to shaolin.Do you think that a wing chun master can fight with a shaolin monk? This is so funny,I think that if a shaolin student fought with a wing chun master,the student will win without thinking.
I dont know why wing chun exist anyway......you cant compare it to shaolin.

Shaolintiger, that was just ignorant man. First of all, Yongchun Chuan (or Wing Chun, VingTsun) WAS a Shaolin style. Maybe you're skeptical of how fast and effective Wing Chun is; well, I can't convince you by saying words on a forum I guess, but hopefully you'll be fortunate enough to meet someone who's well-trained in it. At close-range, Wing Chun is brutal man. It can end a fight, quick. Besides, the style itself comes from Shaolin White Crane, a tried-and-true fighting system. That doesn't mean I don't respect the current SongShan Shaolin techniques; hell, if you could learn both, even better. In the end, it doesn't matter what style/system, it matters more on the person. (I know people have repeated that before, but, oh well, had to say it again, I guess.)

Anyway, stay stong and keep an open mind, peace...

PS. Nice post Maestro...

[shaolintiger]

But can you compare it to songshan shaolin kungfu?