The Truth about Shi Yan Ming & Iron X

[SongshanMonk]

LOL SongshanMonk, I can promise you I've gone a little bit past the surface!

Your experience in Houston and 90% of my experience with the Shaolin doesn't comply with what Iron Cross is saying, ...but 10% of my experience with Shaolin does support what Iron Cross is saying.... so I think we should give him that. Hence Yes I agree with him that it is all BS in 10% of all installations of the Shaolin. 90% of manifestations of the Shaolin, I'm with you.

Look as I see things I think Iron Cross is doing us all a favour, pointing out that there is an elephant under the carpet, IN SOME INSTANCES. As I have said I can relate to that in the two cases that I described above, HOWEVER I say it again, I do NOT think it applies to all instances of the Shaolin.

A lot of people appear to have this type of "black and white" thinking, this habit of taking their personal experience and then extrapolating it. i.e. My experience must = everyone else's experience. In my oppinion that is the only thing going on with Iron Cross. Since its brain-wiring, its unlikely we are going to be able to get him to un-pick it and get him to stop, as that usually takes a lot of therapy. So I agree with you there too SongshanMonk, he probably can't completely change his thinking in the short term, but from what I see he does seem to be moving in the right direction.

I get in a terrible mess in Dengfeng, everyone seems to be everyone else's brother... I take it literally sometimes, much to Hengxuan's amusement. They've got different degrees of "brother", brothers, cousins and friends are all brothers, you can only pick it up from the context or because you have background. So I can validate that without picking up the nuances and not knowing the history, I find it very, very confusing. I can also validate Iron Cross's experience with the jealousy and hating... there is a lot of resentment in some of them, usually the more malignantly Narcissistic. I think in some instances, it also comes down to the the way they do business. They don't seem to have models for collaborating and associating, and a lot of back-stabbing does go on. Again... not in all of them, some are trying to collaborate here in the UK, and they aren't bitching behind each other's backs.

So this stuff goes on... I advocate anyone that I speak to about this stuff to try out different Shifus... if you visit a couple of different schools you can usually pick this stuff up in a few short visits if you don't get hoodwinked by all the hype, then you can rest assured that you don't get these experiences.

Anyway Songshanmonk, its very interesting your experience at the Houston Temple... would you care to share some more with us how your experiences differ from Iron Crosses?

Chicken

Well not trying to prolong this misery for Iron Cross but It's clearly stated by him. Iron Cross stated he thinks of Shaolin in general as BS. Again this is based on his experience at Yan Ming's school....but as I understand it Shaolin is a blanket term meaning all of Shaolin. I disagree with this because my experiences say otherwise. As I stated before there tends to be some waves that roll through the Shaolin community from time to time but I think that would be the "10%" Chicken is referring to. So again, I am not expecting a beam of light to hit Iron Cross and make him think Shaolin is a legimate martial art and beg Yan Ming to take him back. I just don't agree with the approach and manner in which Iron Cross presents his views. But hey to each his own.

Houston is now the home of 4 shaolin schools now. Once upon a time there was only one but for reasons that be there are four now. I think having 4 schools is a good thing because each monk has their way of teaching and running the school. I have been training with Shi Xing Hao's school and enjoy it. It's straight forward, good training and kept simple. SXH is a very generous person and I have never seen him pressure anyone for tuition money (even when some students couldn't pay). SXH has a great personality and is full of energy. Not to mention SXH keeps the wushu from the shaolin separate.

[Chicken]

Wushu and Shaolin Integration

It took me quite some time in my 20's to work out why a lot of people counter-attacked some of my comments and theories. In as much, I started to get fed up, arguing with many people who all seemed to be personalising just about everything I said.

Eventually I worked out that emphatic statements, e.g. Shaolin monks are egotistcal, cult-leading maniacs, so Shaolin is all BS., draw people out against you. Stay away from emphatic propositions, e.g. The Shaolin Monk I know is an egotistical, cult-leading maniac, if the rest of them are like him then Shaolin is all BS., then you rarely draw anyone.

Anyway I think Iron Cross has now clarified it that the scope of his comments only apply to his own sphere of reference, which is around Yan Ming's... so I agree with you, Iron Cross, brain-wiring seems not black and white, we're probably personalising some of your rather emphatically expressed views.

Thanks for enlightening us on Houston Songshanmonk. Actually, it sounds like we have a similar situation going on in London, in as much that we have I think 5 schools. I agree with you that this affords choice in selecting a school & shifu... I think this competitive situation is how Shaolin has always operated in China.... Monopoly is rarely good for the consumer.

Your comment about keeping the Wushu separate for the Shaolin is interesting. Last week we did a professional photo shoot. A couple of things interested me:

1. In our previous shoot 18 months ago, I didn't notice that Hengxuan has expressions for all the moves. This time I noticed it. He knows the precise emotions that go behind every move, which clearly comes from his understanding what the move is designed for. Now when I see less experienced Shaolin performers, I can very easily see if the performer is performing Shaolin spiritually, or just going through the motions so to say.
2. In reccying the venues, I used Hengxuan to frame around. Because we were running round trying to get to a few different places before the sun came down, he wasn't posing... just being himself. These pictures are so different in flavour to his professional performing pictures, its like he's a different person.
3. The meditative aspect of the Quans... Hengxuan is usually 100% engaged with me, I have never seen him dissociate. However I have long suspected that when he performs he is in some state of moving meditation, some times it appears like an entrancement, which I think is "Chan". So whilst I'm running round snapping a few more spots, he's started to do one of the Taichi Forms... when I get back about 3 mins later... wham... he's totally "en-chaned", I snapped it... and would up load it, if someone could tell me what I should use to re-size the picture?

So this for me is the spiritual (Shaolin) and the physical (Wushu) aspects of the gongfu coming together as Chan...

Can you relate to this Songshanmonk or Iron Cross, or has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Chicken

[Iron Cross]

You know i guess i could say that and be all politically correct.... or I can just say what I feel which is Shaolin is bullshit...

If you can tell me where the buddhism is in any of the money making, politics, jealous hating, media exposure, back stabbing or any of the rest of the shit then I will be impressed....

Lets not forget the origional purpose of shaolin was buddhism in action but today that has takena back seat to all the things i just mentioned... hence its all bullshit... YOu can be more buddhist training at tiger schulmans i think...

[Chicken]

Iron Cross, Doc and I were discussing the whole Shaolin Buddhism / lack of Shaolin Buddhism component in the last couple of weeks, and I think we did come to the cagree to some degree, "the lights are on, but nobody's home" as far as Buddhism within Shaolin at the present time.

I've made my points, that actually in Henan they torture Christians, not just the Falungong... and therefore I think you will find that anyone espousing Buddhism runs the risk of getting tortured also. Which I think is why there is quite little open Buddhist practice in the Shaolin. Yes, maybe the Chinese govt is more tolerant to Buddhism in the last 5 years or so, problem is, the Shaolin haven't been going through the motions for so long, they probably can't just drop back into how it might have been 100 years ago.

So I agree with you... not much evident Buddhism.... but where I differ from you is I don't throw the baby out with the bath water... and I do see traces of Shaolin Buddhism, which I was trying to share with you.

You just don't seem to want to hear, which is your perogative. After what you've experienced I think to some point its understandable. This said, there comes a time when you need to move on and stop raining on other people's picnics. Which is where you started, this matter has gone cold and you have moved on...

so perhaps its time we put this to bed?

Chicken

[Iron Cross]

I shot this horse months back... But it just doesnt seem to die... lol

In terms of buddhism and chan and all that.. I am well aware of all the principles and practices.. I found in my final days at shaolin the ones preeching it hadnt a clue about it and wernt even really following it... This included yan ming.

In my life i still tend to lead a life that generally follows a very open buddhist setup i guess you could say.. I guess i am so open and without restricitons i dont even call myself a buddhist.. i dont actually call myself anything.. I just do my own thing...

The weird part about this discussion now is that we both seem to agree on everything.. so there no real point to keep on talking... I believe what i believe for very real reasons though i respect you to go on and do your own thing for your real reasons... Seems like you think the same of me... So i really dont see a problem anywhere anymore...

[Chicken]

LOL Iron Cross,

As a result of our discussion and conclusion here, I've been contacted by the SYM clan, and actually been told that Heng Xuan and I will have to assume their way of operating, and that I'm naieve for not appreciating this... and otherwise belittled and generally condescended in such away that leads me to suspect that everything that you alleged in relation to SYM's organistation is probably true!

Had I not experienced this myself, it was hard to really believe what you were saying, but now I have experience it, I have to say, its bad, really, really bad, the kind of pyschological abuse that is spewing out of that organisation. Honestly, the fact that they claim that that is Buddhism, makes me want to run away screaming... which is in fact what I am doing, here...

You have my sincerest sympathy having been so baddly victimised after that incident.
Sincerely,
Chicken
P.S. I'm screaming and there's no screaming "mood"??? ... Onesp1ng, can you fix me a "Screaming" mood???

[doc]

I think that you'll find this informative

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2622&highlight=cult

[arhat]

lmfao.

potshots from the sidelines. a real gallery of rogues we have here, lol.

time was this forum at least was alive with shaoliness and people actually thought about what they had to contribute. Well, outside of Cheye's photoshop threads. But even those were thoughtful and comedic in a good way, not a sad way. And of course I will fully admit to being a very sarcastic bastard so I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander eh.

What is the matter with you people. And you know what the sad thing is, some of you should really know better, all things considered.

I have one final comment in this thread before I drop it like a hot rock- some people need to seriously get over themselves. Really the only person who actually has some shit to say here would be YI, as he is really the only person who can relate his experience, and he apparently has no needof assistance in running his mouth. What that experience was is subject to several perspectives with various degrees of accuracy, he obviously seriously believes what he's written and you have to respect that at least, but seriously, wtf.

So many "proofs" some of you have fallaciously racked up have been so blown out of context as to almost be a mockery to the forum. Dog will hunt as they say.

I'm sure this post will be more chum for the shark pool, so be my guest, rip it apart, find all your little clues and proofs, have your happy bloodlettings and pat yourself on the back. It might even mean something if you ever get off your asses and put your Shaolin money where your mouth is and accomplish something. I'll be the first to applaud. This thread, and several others like it, make me long for the way the forum used to be. I used to think this forum and website actually protected old school shaolin. Call me naive.

Sometimes I think about contributing some of what I consider the cool and important shit we do but then I see some bullshit like what gets extrapolated from this kind of thread and I am very greatful I don't have the time, and less and less of an inclination, especially since it would probably just be twisted into some bullshit proof about cults and other crapola. It's like I would put up a thread about a visit to a school for troubled kids and instead of posts about how Ch'an is being used to help people break through every post would be like, Ewwww....look at that, SYM shakes hands with the principle and his hand is on top of the principals! What a megalomaniac that guy is! What a CULT!!!

That's the calibre of these posts. Reading it all it's like a poor Monty Python skit.

I always told my brother, who used to post here, we should come back and liven up the place, throw up some posts, show the other side of things, etc. and he was always like naaah...the vibes are different. And it's true. How busy did this forum used to be with all the different shaolin posters, lipster...all the other water buffaloes. And the thing with these forums is, all they are good for these days is pissing matches back and forth, back and forth, and it doesn't matter. I just answered a letter from a guy in prison. THAT matters, but if it were a thread, it would be 2 posts long. Well that's just life I guess. Jumping through hoops to debate people with their perceptions used to be my thing, like smashing the bullshit of WKK, that was something that actually mattered.

There's my chum let's see who is shaolin enough to not reply. I know I am.

[onesp1ng]

Onesp1ng, can you fix me a "Screaming" mood???

i am but a humble servant of dear Master "Iron Fist." Whether or not you may scream, your mood, can only be determined by the Great Bald One. Please, direct your questions toward Him, and cherish His Grace, forever. Otherwise be prepared to face the consequences of your transgression, as nothing is overlooked or gone unpunished in Russbo HELL.

wishing you all the best,

disciple #476

[LeiYunFat]

Well I don't know about "not replying", but I agree with one of your claims. I came here after the heyday of Lipster, Cheye, and all those people. But I do notice that the only things that seem to generate some sort of response is when people like BL, Happeh, and WKK come and shit all over the place.

A lot of people that I had grown to respect just don't post that much anymore, if at all, which is sad, because when you think about it, anyone who comes here, and some that don't -- suffer a loss. But I'm willing to change that, it sounds like you are, too.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but anything further would be kicking a dead horse, and I don't think anyone even cares. I know I wasn't reading this thread until I stumbled on Arhat's post...

[Chicken]

Thanks Doc... yes quite informative.

• Shunning and harsh criticism of "rebellious" members who question the teachings or practices of the group.
• An elitist attitude that is drilled into members, which states that those outside the group are spiritually lukewarm, comprising, or entirely lost.

Seems the first describes what Iron Cross has experienced, and I'm definitely getting the second.

• An "us vs. them" mentality that stresses the group's unique hold on truth and demonizes anyone who opposes that alleged truth.

Splitting: Poor Iron Cross first showed it after his experience, in concluding everything Shaolin is BS. Its a revelation at this point to realise that this is reciprocated, in that, Arhat has now come out trashing the (present) forum.

And you know I got to love Iron Cross at this point in time, for being man enough not to respond... he really is over this, you have my respect Iron Cross.

Chicken

[doc]

I think that you'll find, that cult like behavior is prevalent in MANY martial arts schools and organizations. When I made reference to it, I was not being specific to Yan ming's place, though, I probalby wouldn't deny that from what has been posted here, one could atribute such behavior there also. There are so very many instances of cult like behavior in these schools, from one very large international chain where some second degree black belt left, promoted himself to tenth degree, and marketed himself well, to create one hell of a new, and very popular, school system. To the little dojo's and various other schools, where people go to train and learn with the "master", to large "mcdojo" places, you'll find this behavior very prevalent.

You know, it amazes me. What people find in these monks, masters, karate teachers, etc. Are these students so lost in their lives that they need these individuals, some of them more marketing than substance, and MANY OF THEM, not being who they say they really are, to give their own lives some sort of meaning??

Arhat, look carefully. One day, you may look back and wonder.

If you're in the martial arts, I strongly suggest that you read that thread, and read it carefully, on Cults.

Oh, and while you're at it, read this one too: Narcissism

[arhat]

I've never been able to follow my own advice.

Let's state more obvious things, and make them out to be the 2nd Coming.

Of course people join groups for reasons of self identity. Duh. People play poker in clubs, people sit and knit quilts, people join associations. Some of it is good, and some of it is bad. As far as being germaine to this, our little narcissistic cult has done more good and will continue to do more good than it's done bad. The only reason I joined up at USAST was because I saw it as a tool, and SYM able to wield that tool to do good, in a better way than the Catholic Church, where I thought I had had a vocation.

It's always good to learn something from life. From taking a nice good, calm look around in here, I learned to keep my mouth shut, forget about reaching out to "extended" family to build bridges, forget about trying to add context to what people post, forget about responding to criticisms to ascertain validity, that it's too easy to be misread and I lack patience to jump through hoops to correct it, to not bother wasting time talking to people who are convicted that they are right, and just keep on keeping on.

A simple attempt to explain or provide context gets everyone's back up. That's the interesting thing about what many forum denizens here refer to as "critcism," it's always a one way street, if you give back what you get, or god forbid defend against someone's criticism, then the waterworks and bleating kicks in, you're in a cult, you're elitist- that's a very interesting one. It's no wonder BL found a home. And the way people get played for fools. It's almost brilliant- hats off to Cross, absolutely. The suing episode, now that I look back at it, genius.

Of course the criticizer is ALWAYS right on the money, lmao, after all they are omniscient and that's why they get to criticize. The subject of the criticism, by virtue of being subjected to criticism from an amazing breed of person- a person who can look at a few things and BAM gain instant incontrovertible fact, has no opportunity to reply to fallacies, non sequitors, or even truths! and if they do...well strange bedfellows as they say. That's why the forum is useless. Imagine the balls on someone being criticized to actually reply to the criticism, offer an alternate perspective. What cojones.

What really really cracks me up, is the irony of it all. Thank God I love irony.

Take a look around Doc, indeed...well Doc I have done some looking, I'm always looking, that is for sure. One thing I'm sure you probably learned from your real/fake monk Xing Wei incident is that despite what is in the public, you know you will just have to keep on keepin on in the face of all the bullshit, all the "truths," as Pilate famously states the obvious nature of truths, and eventually that is just fine. Keeping on is enough, and worthy enough of itself that it doesn't matter. Truth has a funny way of perservering despite opinions, nor does it seem like our good is at the mercy of internet forums.

So now I will just go and incompetently review a new gallery of shots from a seminar De Yang and Yan Ming did, and maybe even come up with some witty, narcissistic, and cult like captions. There's one in which De Yang actually has the gall to look like he is taller than the other person in the shot. That little tyrant, what a nerve.

[doc]

Truth has a funny way of perservering despite opinions,

Yes. And, unfortunately, so does bullshit. Proof of that is everywhere.

Or am I just getting more jaded and cynical as I get older...

[arhat]

cynicism is admirable, but when it is for the sake of itself, it's weak and pathetic.

without hesitation I'd say I am a cynical bastard, which many people construe as being condescending and narcissistic I guess, but cynicism in the classic sense is a tool.

bullshit has a long half life to be sure, but from what I can tell, it usually walks.